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on this episode of skeptico alex talks

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with philosopher and well-known atheist

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dr steven law author of believing

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[\h__\h]

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how not to get sucked into an

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intellectual black hole here's the

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example that i sent you and i have

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personal experience with because he told

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it to me and we discussed it on this

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show and that's british psychologist and

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parapsychology critic richard wiseman

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who has investigated probably more of

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these paranormal parapsychology claims

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like telepathy than just about anybody

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else and here's his quote i agree that

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by the standards of any other area of

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science that remote viewing and he later

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added in this quote esp

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is proven but that begs the question do

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we need higher standards of evidence

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when we study the paranormal so stephen

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this is not the fairy in the cup over

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here this is a guy who's reviewed

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hundreds of peer-reviewed papers and

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saying good enough for any other field

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but you know what not good enough

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because of the groundbreaking upset it

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would make for science i think this is

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the best evidence i could give you for

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my claim about scientific materialism

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being woven into science as we know it

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i think what

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presumably you wouldn't accept you know

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if i stick my finger out there and there

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appears to be a finger sort of fairy

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spinning around on the end of it you're

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going to be very very suspicious you're

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not just going to say

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yeah stephen's proved to me that there

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are fairies ah

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you're going to require a much more

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investigation before you take my word

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for it that there really is a fairies uh

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spinning around on the end of my finger

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and why is that it's because

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you know

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the the prior probability that anything

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like a theory exists is very very low

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indeed knowing what we do you know given

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our background knowledge

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stay with us

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welcome to skeptica where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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i'm your host alex zaccharis and on this

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episode dr steven law oxford trained

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philosopher noted atheist and center for

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inquiry uk member now the reason i bring

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up the center for inquiry which is a

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very skeptical atheist kind of

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organization that seeks to

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debunk

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parapsychology often that seems to be

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where it gets a lot of its notoriety is

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that that's kind of the reason that i

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wanted to talk to dr law one of the

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questions that's been going on in my

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mind is

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what are the

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philosophical underpinnings to this

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atheism skepticism that we approach from

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so many angles and in particular i'm

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interested in

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what happens when we remove

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the religious argument the the heated

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debate that seems to dominate the

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conversation of of science versus

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religion as if that's really a debate to

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me as you know in this show i think

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we've moved way past that and have

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looked for the scientific evidence that

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is highly suggestive that consciousness

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survives death so the question in my

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mind is

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what do we do with consciousness

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survives death

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meets

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atheistic philosophy

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and that's what i sought to do in this

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interview with dr steven law i hope you

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enjoy it

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today we welcome dr steven law to

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skeptico dr law is a senior lecturer in

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philosophy at the university of london

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and editor of think

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the philosophy journal for the journal

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of the royal institute of philosophy

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he's here to talk about among other

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things his latest book believing

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[\h__\h] how not to get sucked into an

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intellectual black hole dr law is a

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great pleasure to have you on thanks so

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much for joining me

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hi it's moy my pleasure to be here but

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maybe i should say i'm at heathrow

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college

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uh the university of london well you

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know i i was going to say that but that

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has a lot less meaning to us over here

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in the states we always just kind of

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associate it the university of london

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goes wow that's pretty great if i said

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uh the college then he thought

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yeah he thought college is pretty great

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it deserves to be more widely known see

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there let's give it a plug there because

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it'll probably be more significant to

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folks over there

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so uh you are known uh probably to a lot

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of people through your

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forceful yet well-mannered arguments

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against some of the religious silliness

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that seems to pervade that seems to

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pervade our culture and i guess you

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could say to many are the kinder gentler

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atheist is that something that you kind

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of set out to do or just kind of

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naturally came from your personality

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well the atheism will be the kind of

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gently kinder gentler i guess yeah yeah

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i think yeah i guess

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uh

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i drifted i've always i've been an

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atheism an atheist for a long

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time i haven't always been an atheist

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but after i became interested in

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philosophy and started studying it

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academically

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it wasn't long before i became

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um

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an atheist but i wasn't i wasn't really

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an evangelical atheist i i wasn't

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concerned with going out there and

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spreading the word as it were

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um

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i've become

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better known for that more recently just

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because

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i've had more interaction with religious

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people and i enjoy interacting with

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religious people my my college um his

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religious foundation interestingly so

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i'm very much plugged into

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that world and so inevitably

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my research has become more focused on

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religion it wasn't at all focused on

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religion just a few years ago but i've

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become more and more interested in

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religion

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and so far as the kind of gentler

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face is concerned um

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well i'd like to think i'd like to think

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that was true um

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it's not i probably have to work at it a

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little bit i mean every now and then i

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can feel my blood beginning to boil

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and i just have to take a deep breath

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uh and just think for a moment but uh

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yeah so most of the time i manage i

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managed to

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create this facade at least that i'm

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right right right

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well

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of course i think it's more than a

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facade of course but

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your arguments invariably come back to

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philosophy that's who you are you're a

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philosopher

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and i'm just wondering you know in a in

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a society where none other than stephen

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hawking has pronounced philosophy dead

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maybe you ought to just speak to

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the need we have for philosophy and

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announce maybe that philosophy isn't

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dead

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yeah it just smells funny it's um

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it's zach said about jazz

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um

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i i think that

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philosophy is important um

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it seems to me that

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well if you ask a philosopher what is

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philosophy

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you're gonna get a lot of different

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answers of course um there's no real

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consensus

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even about what it is that we're doing

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amongst philosophers but my view is that

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well here's a fairly simple

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characterization i think a philosophy is

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grappling with those big questions and

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puzzles

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that appear at least appear to reach

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beyond the point where

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the empirical sciences or mathematics

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say would be

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able to provide us even in principle um

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with some kind of answer

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um so examples of questions or puzzles

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time travel okay now time travel

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are

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you can you can raise the question of

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whether it even makes sense whether

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there's some kind of logical

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contradiction involved in the very idea

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the very positive the very idea of time

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travel

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it's ruled out logically or conceptually

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perhaps now if you can do that if you

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can just by thinking through and

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unpacking the relevant concepts

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establish that it really doesn't make

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sense

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then we've answered a a fairly big and

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important question a question that

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scientists are interested in too but now

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we've done it from the comfort

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of our armchairs just by engaging in a

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bit of a priori

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conceptual reflection so that's some

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real progress that you could make by

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doing you know thought experiments

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rather than

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laboratory experiments um and then other

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examples would be

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why is there anything

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at all uh on the face of it that that's

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a question that science will necessarily

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be unable to answer because

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when scientists explain things they

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explain things by appealing to laws or

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causes

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which they have discovered um

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but then how could science explain the

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most fundamental laws uh it couldn't um

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those will necessarily be

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lie beyond the ability of science to to

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explain if if that's what a scientific

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explanation is so

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then we're we're in the territory of

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philosophy not just philosophy of course

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uh

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religion too tends to get involved with

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these big questions you know the other

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thing i think where philosophy really

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plays a role is in this whole business

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of paradigm shifting invariably we're

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always talking about shifting from one

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paradigm to another and i i think you

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know it's so funny that stephen hawking

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would say such a thing because

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physics has of course

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been in the middle of a paradigm shift

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for the last hundred years and i think

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who better than a philosopher using the

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tools of logic and reason to stand up

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and say hey wait a minute are we stuck

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in a rut here are we are we making some

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assumptions that we shouldn't be making

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i think it's a great tool and it it kind

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of strikes me as a valuable addition to

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this kind of thought process so paradigm

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shifting right

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yeah i think that's right um

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was it einstein who

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partially credited his reading of hume

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um

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with his his later subsequent

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discoveries it was this that kind of

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got him fired up got him motivated got

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him asking the kind of questions that

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then led him on to making

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these these new and important

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developments philosophy is very good at

285
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that getting people to take a step back

286
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and quit getting people to question the

287
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things that they have

288
00:10:59,030 --> 00:10:57,200
hitherto taken for granted even even

289
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within a scientific setting and that is

290
00:11:04,389 --> 00:11:02,480
often very fruitful indeed

291
00:11:07,030 --> 00:11:04,399
dr law i understand that you've taken a

292
00:11:09,670 --> 00:11:07,040
rather interesting and unconventional

293
00:11:12,630 --> 00:11:09,680
path to becoming an oxford trained

294
00:11:14,550 --> 00:11:12,640
professor of philosophy from a postman

295
00:11:16,150 --> 00:11:14,560
to a leading intellectual do i have that

296
00:11:18,069 --> 00:11:16,160
right uh tell us a little bit about your

297
00:11:20,710 --> 00:11:18,079
background yeah you have the placement

298
00:11:22,790 --> 00:11:20,720
there right certainly uh

299
00:11:25,350 --> 00:11:22,800
yeah i used to be a postman i was uh i

300
00:11:27,430 --> 00:11:25,360
was the placement for the forgerton uh

301
00:11:28,389 --> 00:11:27,440
part of cambridge for around about four

302
00:11:29,990 --> 00:11:28,399
years

303
00:11:31,910 --> 00:11:30,000
every other week i would deliver the

304
00:11:32,949 --> 00:11:31,920
mail very badly

305
00:11:35,430 --> 00:11:32,959
to

306
00:11:37,350 --> 00:11:35,440
houses i had very long hair back then it

307
00:11:40,870 --> 00:11:37,360
was right down my back

308
00:11:43,670 --> 00:11:40,880
uh so i was a hippie the hippie postman

309
00:11:46,310 --> 00:11:43,680
they'll probably remember me

310
00:11:48,470 --> 00:11:46,320
so yeah i started out there became

311
00:11:50,150 --> 00:11:48,480
interested in philosophy

312
00:11:51,590 --> 00:11:50,160
um i became interested in philosophical

313
00:11:53,269 --> 00:11:51,600
questions i wasn't really aware that

314
00:11:54,630 --> 00:11:53,279
there was this subject philosophy to

315
00:11:56,230 --> 00:11:54,640
begin with i just knew that i was

316
00:11:58,389 --> 00:11:56,240
interested in time travel and whether

317
00:11:59,990 --> 00:11:58,399
this might be a virtual world rather

318
00:12:01,670 --> 00:12:00,000
than a real one and whether or not god

319
00:12:03,990 --> 00:12:01,680
exists and what makes things right and

320
00:12:05,190 --> 00:12:04,000
wrong and so on those kind of questions

321
00:12:06,629 --> 00:12:05,200
and then i realized that yesterday you

322
00:12:07,590 --> 00:12:06,639
could pursue this

323
00:12:10,230 --> 00:12:07,600
stuff

324
00:12:12,069 --> 00:12:10,240
um at university and once i realized

325
00:12:14,470 --> 00:12:12,079
that then there was no stopping me i

326
00:12:17,350 --> 00:12:14,480
applied as a mature student

327
00:12:19,750 --> 00:12:17,360
and somehow by some miracle i gained

328
00:12:21,590 --> 00:12:19,760
intro to a university and i've never

329
00:12:24,629 --> 00:12:21,600
never left i think that's very humble i

330
00:12:27,590 --> 00:12:24,639
don't know many postmen who could decide

331
00:12:29,750 --> 00:12:27,600
that they're going to get a phd from

332
00:12:31,509 --> 00:12:29,760
oxford and then just go about doing it

333
00:12:33,430 --> 00:12:31,519
but we'll leave that aside let's let's

334
00:12:35,990 --> 00:12:33,440
talk for a minute about your most recent

335
00:12:37,750 --> 00:12:36,000
book believing [\h__\h]

336
00:12:39,910 --> 00:12:37,760
provocative title

337
00:12:41,110 --> 00:12:39,920
who's it written for it's written i

338
00:12:43,990 --> 00:12:41,120
guess

339
00:12:47,750 --> 00:12:44,000
one group of people that i rate it for

340
00:12:49,910 --> 00:12:47,760
well i've got fairly young kids um

341
00:12:51,190 --> 00:12:49,920
i was kind of a late starter with having

342
00:12:54,470 --> 00:12:51,200
children so i've affect fairly young

343
00:12:57,030 --> 00:12:54,480
kids and it concerns me

344
00:12:58,870 --> 00:12:57,040
that there are all these belief systems

345
00:12:59,829 --> 00:12:58,880
out there in the world

346
00:13:03,910 --> 00:12:59,839
um

347
00:13:05,829 --> 00:13:03,920
many benign but some not quite so benign

348
00:13:08,949 --> 00:13:05,839
and certainly belief systems which are

349
00:13:11,269 --> 00:13:08,959
capable of acting like a black hole

350
00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:11,279
an intellectual black hole you you get

351
00:13:15,829 --> 00:13:13,200
too close and you start getting sucked

352
00:13:17,509 --> 00:13:15,839
in and before you know it you're trapped

353
00:13:20,069 --> 00:13:17,519
in there and you can't you becoming an

354
00:13:21,990 --> 00:13:20,079
intellectual prisoner and so sometimes

355
00:13:23,670 --> 00:13:22,000
sometimes they're quite benign but

356
00:13:26,550 --> 00:13:23,680
sometimes they're really quite

357
00:13:27,990 --> 00:13:26,560
exploitative financially exploitative

358
00:13:29,910 --> 00:13:28,000
for example

359
00:13:32,069 --> 00:13:29,920
they take people away from their friends

360
00:13:34,150 --> 00:13:32,079
and families they make people give up

361
00:13:35,030 --> 00:13:34,160
opportunities that they really should

362
00:13:35,829 --> 00:13:35,040
take

363
00:13:39,350 --> 00:13:35,839
um

364
00:13:41,430 --> 00:13:39,360
and i it concerns me that our cultural

365
00:13:43,829 --> 00:13:41,440
environment contains those kind of

366
00:13:46,949 --> 00:13:43,839
dangerous belief systems and i think we

367
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:46,959
should all know the warning signs if you

368
00:13:50,629 --> 00:13:49,040
like of

369
00:13:52,470 --> 00:13:50,639
an intellectual black hole so the book

370
00:13:53,990 --> 00:13:52,480
was really written for

371
00:13:56,389 --> 00:13:54,000
for everyone but particularly for young

372
00:13:59,269 --> 00:13:56,399
people who might come into contact with

373
00:14:01,430 --> 00:13:59,279
the belief system like that um just to

374
00:14:04,230 --> 00:14:01,440
give them some awareness

375
00:14:05,910 --> 00:14:04,240
of what the warning signs would be uh

376
00:14:07,910 --> 00:14:05,920
what the danger signals are so the

377
00:14:09,750 --> 00:14:07,920
little red light comes on in their head

378
00:14:11,430 --> 00:14:09,760
the next time some wide-eyed true

379
00:14:12,949 --> 00:14:11,440
believer thrusts a leaflet into their

380
00:14:14,949 --> 00:14:12,959
hand as they walk down the high street

381
00:14:16,870 --> 00:14:14,959
and says have you heard the truth the

382
00:14:19,350 --> 00:14:16,880
good news or whatever it happens

383
00:14:21,430 --> 00:14:19,360
here's a quote from the book

384
00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:21,440
when i talk about a [\h__\h] belief

385
00:14:26,550 --> 00:14:24,000
system it's not the content i'm

386
00:14:29,110 --> 00:14:26,560
suggesting is [\h__\h] but rather the

387
00:14:31,430 --> 00:14:29,120
manner in which its core beliefs are

388
00:14:35,110 --> 00:14:31,440
defended and promoted

389
00:14:36,949 --> 00:14:35,120
tell us a little bit about that sure um

390
00:14:39,509 --> 00:14:36,959
so i talk about all sorts of belief

391
00:14:41,350 --> 00:14:39,519
systems in the book um and

392
00:14:44,870 --> 00:14:41,360
in some cases

393
00:14:47,110 --> 00:14:44,880
the core beliefs could be true um so i'm

394
00:14:49,910 --> 00:14:47,120
not attacking the claim that the beliefs

395
00:14:52,790 --> 00:14:49,920
are true in in many cases what i'm

396
00:14:54,069 --> 00:14:52,800
pointing out is the way in which

397
00:14:56,470 --> 00:14:54,079
people will

398
00:14:59,750 --> 00:14:56,480
defend their beliefs begin to build a

399
00:15:02,069 --> 00:14:59,760
wall around them that immunizes their

400
00:15:04,790 --> 00:15:02,079
belief system and protects it from any

401
00:15:07,189 --> 00:15:04,800
kind of intellectual threat

402
00:15:09,990 --> 00:15:07,199
and creates a kind of a veneer

403
00:15:11,269 --> 00:15:10,000
of reasonableness of sort of foe or fake

404
00:15:13,670 --> 00:15:11,279
reasonableness

405
00:15:16,949 --> 00:15:13,680
um it's it's the mechanisms that are

406
00:15:19,750 --> 00:15:16,959
used that are applied to generate that

407
00:15:21,750 --> 00:15:19,760
kind of structure around the beliefs

408
00:15:23,829 --> 00:15:21,760
that then turns it into

409
00:15:26,069 --> 00:15:23,839
a sort of mental prison

410
00:15:27,750 --> 00:15:26,079
for the true believer it's it's those

411
00:15:29,110 --> 00:15:27,760
mechanisms that i'm that i'm most

412
00:15:31,670 --> 00:15:29,120
interested

413
00:15:33,189 --> 00:15:31,680
in i i identify a number of those in the

414
00:15:35,670 --> 00:15:33,199
book of course when we talk about

415
00:15:38,150 --> 00:15:35,680
[\h__\h] belief systems the discussion

416
00:15:40,470 --> 00:15:38,160
often comes back to debates about

417
00:15:43,030 --> 00:15:40,480
christianity a topic you're very

418
00:15:45,030 --> 00:15:43,040
comfortable debating and have debated

419
00:15:47,189 --> 00:15:45,040
some of the leading christian apologists

420
00:15:49,910 --> 00:15:47,199
and folks can find that on youtube or in

421
00:15:51,350 --> 00:15:49,920
any number of places i guess

422
00:15:53,110 --> 00:15:51,360
i feel like

423
00:15:55,030 --> 00:15:53,120
when i hear some of those debates i want

424
00:15:57,189 --> 00:15:55,040
to go wow is that really

425
00:15:59,269 --> 00:15:57,199
where we're at are we still

426
00:16:01,110 --> 00:15:59,279
talking about the empty tomb and

427
00:16:03,829 --> 00:16:01,120
debating that

428
00:16:05,350 --> 00:16:03,839
and on one hand i guess maybe that is

429
00:16:06,790 --> 00:16:05,360
where we're at

430
00:16:09,189 --> 00:16:06,800
on the other hand

431
00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:09,199
i guess i want to move the discussion

432
00:16:13,829 --> 00:16:11,120
forward and say okay you know that

433
00:16:15,990 --> 00:16:13,839
culture war debate is really over

434
00:16:18,710 --> 00:16:16,000
you've won here you go

435
00:16:20,550 --> 00:16:18,720
but let's move on to a more interesting

436
00:16:23,030 --> 00:16:20,560
culture war battle

437
00:16:24,949 --> 00:16:23,040
and that one i think is somewhat even

438
00:16:26,550 --> 00:16:24,959
obscured by this other debate we're

439
00:16:28,230 --> 00:16:26,560
having about you know

440
00:16:30,550 --> 00:16:28,240
empty tomb and all that stuff and that

441
00:16:33,430 --> 00:16:30,560
has to do with scientific

442
00:16:34,790 --> 00:16:33,440
materialism and whether or not

443
00:16:37,110 --> 00:16:34,800
we are

444
00:16:39,590 --> 00:16:37,120
anything these big picture questions

445
00:16:41,189 --> 00:16:39,600
meaning of life kind of questions

446
00:16:44,710 --> 00:16:41,199
what do you think about that are we

447
00:16:46,470 --> 00:16:44,720
stuck in a rut a little bit with the

448
00:16:49,990 --> 00:16:46,480
christian versus

449
00:16:52,230 --> 00:16:50,000
atheist debate and what about this idea

450
00:16:54,790 --> 00:16:52,240
of moving the debate to

451
00:16:56,870 --> 00:16:54,800
this notion of scientific materialism

452
00:16:59,509 --> 00:16:56,880
any thoughts on that well maybe i should

453
00:17:01,430 --> 00:16:59,519
just point out that um

454
00:17:02,829 --> 00:17:01,440
i'm not wedded to

455
00:17:05,429 --> 00:17:02,839
our

456
00:17:08,150 --> 00:17:05,439
naturalism or materialism

457
00:17:10,789 --> 00:17:08,160
as a philosopher in fact

458
00:17:13,750 --> 00:17:10,799
not that many philosophers

459
00:17:15,510 --> 00:17:13,760
are professional philosophers

460
00:17:17,669 --> 00:17:15,520
tend to be

461
00:17:21,510 --> 00:17:17,679
fairly divided on the naturalism issue

462
00:17:23,350 --> 00:17:21,520
there was a filled papers survey done

463
00:17:24,710 --> 00:17:23,360
a few years ago

464
00:17:26,870 --> 00:17:24,720
of professional philosophers and

465
00:17:29,909 --> 00:17:26,880
graduate students around the world only

466
00:17:31,350 --> 00:17:29,919
only around about 50 percent sign up to

467
00:17:34,150 --> 00:17:31,360
naturalism

468
00:17:36,789 --> 00:17:34,160
um i find you only about less than 15

469
00:17:38,950 --> 00:17:36,799
sign up to any kind of theism at all

470
00:17:40,710 --> 00:17:38,960
so they don't they don't believe in god

471
00:17:42,470 --> 00:17:40,720
very many of them the vast majority of

472
00:17:44,789 --> 00:17:42,480
them but still

473
00:17:46,950 --> 00:17:44,799
neither do they sign up to naturalism

474
00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:46,960
necessarily

475
00:17:51,350 --> 00:17:48,240
you often

476
00:17:52,870 --> 00:17:51,360
find debates about religion set up as

477
00:17:55,110 --> 00:17:52,880
debates between on the one hand

478
00:17:58,070 --> 00:17:55,120
religious people on the other hand

479
00:17:59,990 --> 00:17:58,080
the the naturalists and the materialists

480
00:18:02,710 --> 00:18:00,000
and the truth is that there are there

481
00:18:04,150 --> 00:18:02,720
are other options you you know it's not

482
00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:04,160
either or you don't have to be one or

483
00:18:07,350 --> 00:18:06,160
the other of those two things well well

484
00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:07,360
but really

485
00:18:10,390 --> 00:18:09,039
you know i i understand where you're

486
00:18:12,230 --> 00:18:10,400
where you're coming from on that and and

487
00:18:13,669 --> 00:18:12,240
this now becomes one of the problems i

488
00:18:15,430 --> 00:18:13,679
think that a lot of folks including

489
00:18:16,789 --> 00:18:15,440
myself have with philosophy and you

490
00:18:18,630 --> 00:18:16,799
don't fall into this as much which i

491
00:18:21,029 --> 00:18:18,640
really appreciate is that i think we

492
00:18:21,830 --> 00:18:21,039
have to stay grounded a little bit in

493
00:18:29,029 --> 00:18:21,840
the

494
00:18:31,029 --> 00:18:29,039
find ourselves in so this question of

495
00:18:33,510 --> 00:18:31,039
christianity or this question of god or

496
00:18:36,870 --> 00:18:33,520
no god really the atheism question

497
00:18:38,470 --> 00:18:36,880
really i think has been set up as a

498
00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:38,480
question about

499
00:18:43,350 --> 00:18:41,200
meaning materialism richard dawkins we

500
00:18:45,909 --> 00:18:43,360
are biological robots

501
00:18:47,430 --> 00:18:45,919
life has no meaning your consciousness

502
00:18:50,549 --> 00:18:47,440
is an illusion

503
00:18:53,909 --> 00:18:50,559
that is really the core intellectual

504
00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:53,919
thrust of atheism so it might not be

505
00:18:58,230 --> 00:18:55,520
your atheism but i think you'd have to

506
00:19:01,190 --> 00:18:58,240
concede that you know that is the core

507
00:19:03,510 --> 00:19:01,200
thrust of the atheism debate if you will

508
00:19:05,350 --> 00:19:03,520
and i i would suggest to you go ahead

509
00:19:07,990 --> 00:19:05,360
i'm sorry yeah i'm not sure that's true

510
00:19:09,830 --> 00:19:08,000
i mean there clearly are some very vocal

511
00:19:12,470 --> 00:19:09,840
atheists who also you know very much

512
00:19:14,150 --> 00:19:12,480
wedded to materialism and naturalism

513
00:19:17,029 --> 00:19:14,160
but there are there are quite a few like

514
00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:17,039
me that that are not um

515
00:19:20,230 --> 00:19:18,960
so you know there are a range of views

516
00:19:22,230 --> 00:19:20,240
and

517
00:19:25,270 --> 00:19:22,240
it it one of the things that bothers me

518
00:19:27,590 --> 00:19:25,280
is the way in which our religious people

519
00:19:30,390 --> 00:19:27,600
think that they can establish atheism as

520
00:19:33,190 --> 00:19:30,400
false by simply finding fault with

521
00:19:35,830 --> 00:19:33,200
naturalism or materialism so if they

522
00:19:37,909 --> 00:19:35,840
could just show for example that there's

523
00:19:38,789 --> 00:19:37,919
the consciousness cannot be accommodated

524
00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:38,799
within

525
00:19:43,350 --> 00:19:41,360
um a sort of naturalistic worldview well

526
00:19:44,950 --> 00:19:43,360
then that's atheism sorted you can't be

527
00:19:47,750 --> 00:19:44,960
an atheist now that doesn't follow at

528
00:19:49,909 --> 00:19:47,760
all um that's just a poor argument

529
00:19:52,070 --> 00:19:49,919
against atheism i mean i'm an atheist i

530
00:19:54,150 --> 00:19:52,080
don't believe in god or gods but that

531
00:19:56,870 --> 00:19:54,160
doesn't mean that i had to sign up to

532
00:19:59,510 --> 00:19:56,880
naturalism or materialism not at all i

533
00:20:00,789 --> 00:19:59,520
could be a mathematical platonist for

534
00:20:02,549 --> 00:20:00,799
example

535
00:20:04,230 --> 00:20:02,559
as many mathematicians are aren't they

536
00:20:07,029 --> 00:20:04,240
they they believe that mathematics

537
00:20:08,470 --> 00:20:07,039
describes some non-natural realm well i

538
00:20:09,430 --> 00:20:08,480
could take that view without believing

539
00:20:11,350 --> 00:20:09,440
in god

540
00:20:13,510 --> 00:20:11,360
so i could be an atheist without being a

541
00:20:15,750 --> 00:20:13,520
naturalist or materialist i'm gonna try

542
00:20:17,830 --> 00:20:15,760
and dance around that because speaking

543
00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:17,840
of intellectual black holes that's an

544
00:20:21,270 --> 00:20:19,520
argument we could get into about god and

545
00:20:23,669 --> 00:20:21,280
then defining god and your definition

546
00:20:24,630 --> 00:20:23,679
and all that i i do want to come back to

547
00:20:26,549 --> 00:20:24,640
this though because we're on to

548
00:20:27,830 --> 00:20:26,559
something and that's that i want to talk

549
00:20:30,070 --> 00:20:27,840
about meaning

550
00:20:32,070 --> 00:20:30,080
meaning in life meaning in

551
00:20:35,029 --> 00:20:32,080
the universe because i think that's one

552
00:20:37,190 --> 00:20:35,039
of the hardest challenges that atheists

553
00:20:39,350 --> 00:20:37,200
face and whether it's explicit or

554
00:20:41,830 --> 00:20:39,360
implicit i think it's where people are

555
00:20:43,029 --> 00:20:41,840
coming from and that's that hey you're

556
00:20:45,110 --> 00:20:43,039
telling me

557
00:20:47,029 --> 00:20:45,120
mr atheist and i'm not hanging this on

558
00:20:49,430 --> 00:20:47,039
you but you're telling me life has no

559
00:20:51,270 --> 00:20:49,440
meaning and yet i know my life has

560
00:20:53,350 --> 00:20:51,280
meaning i know it kind of

561
00:20:55,909 --> 00:20:53,360
intuitively i know my life has meaning

562
00:20:57,510 --> 00:20:55,919
so convince to me that my life doesn't

563
00:20:58,950 --> 00:20:57,520
have meaning and i think we can back

564
00:21:01,270 --> 00:20:58,960
that up again i can go to richard

565
00:21:03,350 --> 00:21:01,280
dawkins and we are biological robots or

566
00:21:05,350 --> 00:21:03,360
i can go to daniel dennett and you are

567
00:21:07,029 --> 00:21:05,360
an illusion i mean this isn't this one

568
00:21:10,789 --> 00:21:07,039
of the core tenets

569
00:21:13,510 --> 00:21:10,799
if not of atheism of the cultural

570
00:21:15,830 --> 00:21:13,520
message that we get about atheism and

571
00:21:17,350 --> 00:21:15,840
that is that life has no meaning well

572
00:21:20,870 --> 00:21:17,360
that's an enormous question whether life

573
00:21:22,870 --> 00:21:20,880
has meaning or not um

574
00:21:25,750 --> 00:21:22,880
i you know i if you're interested in

575
00:21:27,590 --> 00:21:25,760
what i think i would read my book on

576
00:21:28,630 --> 00:21:27,600
humanism a very short introduction to

577
00:21:31,350 --> 00:21:28,640
humanism because it's got a whole

578
00:21:33,990 --> 00:21:31,360
chapter on the meaning of life um in it

579
00:21:35,750 --> 00:21:34,000
um i couldn't begin to unpack all of the

580
00:21:38,870 --> 00:21:35,760
issues here but it seems to me that

581
00:21:41,029 --> 00:21:38,880
first of all both theists and atheists

582
00:21:43,190 --> 00:21:41,039
have a problem so far as the meaning of

583
00:21:45,350 --> 00:21:43,200
life is concerned it's all very well

584
00:21:46,789 --> 00:21:45,360
saying hey you mr atheist you explain

585
00:21:48,549 --> 00:21:46,799
the meaning of life but the truth is

586
00:21:50,470 --> 00:21:48,559
that when you listen to

587
00:21:52,149 --> 00:21:50,480
the accounts of

588
00:21:54,990 --> 00:21:52,159
a meaningful life that are given by the

589
00:21:56,950 --> 00:21:55,000
religious they often turn out to be very

590
00:21:58,470 --> 00:21:56,960
unsatisfactory too

591
00:22:00,310 --> 00:21:58,480
being told for example that you were

592
00:22:02,630 --> 00:22:00,320
made for a purpose

593
00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:02,640
uh and that gives your life meaning

594
00:22:06,950 --> 00:22:04,720
um that that's the explanation for why

595
00:22:08,870 --> 00:22:06,960
it has meaning it's not a very good

596
00:22:10,950 --> 00:22:08,880
explanation i mean suppose it turns out

597
00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:10,960
that i was indeed made for a purpose

598
00:22:15,430 --> 00:22:13,760
suppose we all were uh engineered by

599
00:22:16,950 --> 00:22:15,440
aliens to clean their toilets and

600
00:22:18,230 --> 00:22:16,960
they're coming soon to pick us up and

601
00:22:20,630 --> 00:22:18,240
take us off and

602
00:22:22,789 --> 00:22:20,640
deliver us to their toilets where we'll

603
00:22:23,750 --> 00:22:22,799
be find ourselves happily slaving away

604
00:22:25,750 --> 00:22:23,760
forever

605
00:22:27,510 --> 00:22:25,760
doing the job that we were always meant

606
00:22:29,350 --> 00:22:27,520
to do does that do you now feel that

607
00:22:31,750 --> 00:22:29,360
your life has meaning

608
00:22:33,270 --> 00:22:31,760
not at all uh having a purpose being

609
00:22:35,270 --> 00:22:33,280
made for a purpose does not give your

610
00:22:36,549 --> 00:22:35,280
life meaning certainly certainly not

611
00:22:38,789 --> 00:22:36,559
necessarily

612
00:22:41,270 --> 00:22:38,799
and so these quick easy glib religious

613
00:22:43,750 --> 00:22:41,280
answers are not really good answers at

614
00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:43,760
all um they just create

615
00:22:47,510 --> 00:22:45,600
they just create the illusion that

616
00:22:49,510 --> 00:22:47,520
meaning has somehow miraculously been

617
00:22:50,789 --> 00:22:49,520
conjured up by the really by the

618
00:22:52,149 --> 00:22:50,799
religious person but on closer

619
00:22:53,669 --> 00:22:52,159
examination the meaning just runs

620
00:22:55,350 --> 00:22:53,679
through your fingers so meaning is a

621
00:22:57,270 --> 00:22:55,360
problem for everyone i don't think it's

622
00:22:59,909 --> 00:22:57,280
that atheists particularly have a

623
00:23:02,870 --> 00:22:59,919
problem any more than theists

624
00:23:05,669 --> 00:23:02,880
i agree for the most part i do think

625
00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:05,679
that then we have to be explicit and say

626
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:08,640
biological robots richard dawkins is a

627
00:23:13,029 --> 00:23:10,799
silly notion consciousness is an

628
00:23:15,510 --> 00:23:13,039
illusion daniel dennett is a silly

629
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:15,520
notion and put it kind of if we just

630
00:23:17,990 --> 00:23:17,039
want to kind of sort it out and say all

631
00:23:20,789 --> 00:23:18,000
these

632
00:23:22,789 --> 00:23:20,799
goofy religious dogma concepts are silly

633
00:23:24,310 --> 00:23:22,799
and we can kind of throw them away then

634
00:23:26,390 --> 00:23:24,320
you know let's throw these guys away too

635
00:23:28,710 --> 00:23:26,400
because i don't think any of that really

636
00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:28,720
makes much sense either i i always think

637
00:23:31,990 --> 00:23:30,240
and i sent you this quota so i'd love to

638
00:23:32,950 --> 00:23:32,000
get your comment on it i always think of

639
00:23:37,669 --> 00:23:32,960
the

640
00:23:41,350 --> 00:23:37,679
famous nobel prize-winning french

641
00:23:43,870 --> 00:23:41,360
philosopher albert camus who said

642
00:23:46,149 --> 00:23:43,880
there's really only one serious

643
00:23:49,510 --> 00:23:46,159
philosophical question and that is

644
00:23:51,350 --> 00:23:49,520
suicide and i think you know it's pretty

645
00:23:53,350 --> 00:23:51,360
very french very french but i think it

646
00:23:54,789 --> 00:23:53,360
gets the heart of this meaning i mean if

647
00:23:56,470 --> 00:23:54,799
you really think

648
00:23:58,390 --> 00:23:56,480
life has no meaning

649
00:24:00,950 --> 00:23:58,400
then

650
00:24:04,149 --> 00:24:00,960
what is there i mean what really

651
00:24:06,230 --> 00:24:04,159
could possibly be a motivation for life

652
00:24:08,070 --> 00:24:06,240
i think it's almost a given that our

653
00:24:10,630 --> 00:24:08,080
life has meaning because that's how we

654
00:24:13,750 --> 00:24:10,640
live our life that is that we our life

655
00:24:15,909 --> 00:24:13,760
is defined by the decisions we make how

656
00:24:18,230 --> 00:24:15,919
we live our life is what is what we

657
00:24:20,390 --> 00:24:18,240
believe and no one lives their life as

658
00:24:21,669 --> 00:24:20,400
it as if it has no meaning no but are

659
00:24:23,590 --> 00:24:21,679
you suggesting that the life of an

660
00:24:25,110 --> 00:24:23,600
atheist is uh

661
00:24:27,830 --> 00:24:25,120
is meaningless

662
00:24:30,549 --> 00:24:27,840
well i i'm suggesting that

663
00:24:31,590 --> 00:24:30,559
that that this is the philosophical

664
00:24:33,350 --> 00:24:31,600
route

665
00:24:36,230 --> 00:24:33,360
that has to be

666
00:24:39,029 --> 00:24:36,240
fully taken in and fully addressed so

667
00:24:41,669 --> 00:24:39,039
i i think it gets obscured because i

668
00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:41,679
understand i get it you know inundated

669
00:24:46,870 --> 00:24:44,320
with religious [\h__\h]

670
00:24:48,870 --> 00:24:46,880
inundated with a religious

671
00:24:51,029 --> 00:24:48,880
black hole that just kind of is

672
00:24:53,190 --> 00:24:51,039
confusing and doesn't make sense and is

673
00:24:55,430 --> 00:24:53,200
infused into our society in a way that

674
00:24:57,590 --> 00:24:55,440
just makes you question the institutions

675
00:24:59,110 --> 00:24:57,600
that we have around us i get all that

676
00:25:01,190 --> 00:24:59,120
but when you get to the other side of

677
00:25:04,310 --> 00:25:01,200
that and you say well then wait a minute

678
00:25:06,630 --> 00:25:04,320
am i buying into this other idea of my

679
00:25:08,070 --> 00:25:06,640
life has no meaning of course it's not

680
00:25:10,390 --> 00:25:08,080
because that doesn't make any sense

681
00:25:13,190 --> 00:25:10,400
either so we're kind of i i think it's

682
00:25:15,110 --> 00:25:13,200
facing the reality that we really are

683
00:25:17,350 --> 00:25:15,120
between these two worlds if we think

684
00:25:19,350 --> 00:25:17,360
things through but it's it's a classic

685
00:25:21,269 --> 00:25:19,360
philosophical conundrum isn't it you

686
00:25:23,350 --> 00:25:21,279
know what is the meaning of life what

687
00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:23,360
makes life meaningful and in fact there

688
00:25:28,630 --> 00:25:26,400
are plenty of um atheist answers to that

689
00:25:30,230 --> 00:25:28,640
question which perhaps they're not going

690
00:25:31,909 --> 00:25:30,240
to you you're not going to find them

691
00:25:34,070 --> 00:25:31,919
very attractive answers or very

692
00:25:36,149 --> 00:25:34,080
plausible answers but the fact is that

693
00:25:37,830 --> 00:25:36,159
religious answers tend not to be very

694
00:25:39,590 --> 00:25:37,840
plausible either when you start to look

695
00:25:41,110 --> 00:25:39,600
at them more closely it's just a

696
00:25:42,390 --> 00:25:41,120
philosophical

697
00:25:44,390 --> 00:25:42,400
puzzle

698
00:25:45,990 --> 00:25:44,400
in much the same way as

699
00:25:47,830 --> 00:25:46,000
i don't know why is there anything at

700
00:25:49,590 --> 00:25:47,840
all it's a philosophical puzzle there

701
00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:49,600
are all sorts of philosophical puzzles

702
00:25:53,510 --> 00:25:51,360
and we what i think we should do is we

703
00:25:55,029 --> 00:25:53,520
should acknowledge that they're tough

704
00:25:56,549 --> 00:25:55,039
and we don't necessarily know the

705
00:25:58,789 --> 00:25:56,559
answers

706
00:26:01,110 --> 00:25:58,799
to them but it doesn't follow them that

707
00:26:03,110 --> 00:26:01,120
the default position must be to kind of

708
00:26:05,909 --> 00:26:03,120
immediately appeal to god or the

709
00:26:08,070 --> 00:26:05,919
supernatural uh and suppose that that

710
00:26:09,990 --> 00:26:08,080
then must be the correct answer i can't

711
00:26:12,230 --> 00:26:10,000
say that that's that's right totally

712
00:26:13,029 --> 00:26:12,240
agree but but neither should we appeal

713
00:26:17,269 --> 00:26:13,039
to

714
00:26:23,029 --> 00:26:17,279
uh

715
00:26:25,590 --> 00:26:23,039
like i said you know a daniel dennett

716
00:26:27,350 --> 00:26:25,600
biological robot meme you know i mean

717
00:26:28,630 --> 00:26:27,360
that stuff when you really break it down

718
00:26:29,909 --> 00:26:28,640
doesn't make any sense but i've kind of

719
00:26:31,190 --> 00:26:29,919
already said that we've covered that

720
00:26:33,269 --> 00:26:31,200
ground i don't know if it doesn't make

721
00:26:34,870 --> 00:26:33,279
any sense i mean you know whether or not

722
00:26:36,470 --> 00:26:34,880
um

723
00:26:38,390 --> 00:26:36,480
you know precisely what the relationship

724
00:26:42,549 --> 00:26:38,400
is between mind and body

725
00:26:44,870 --> 00:26:42,559
uh is a is a very very interesting

726
00:26:46,470 --> 00:26:44,880
question i don't sign up to any

727
00:26:48,070 --> 00:26:46,480
particular view

728
00:26:50,710 --> 00:26:48,080
so far as that

729
00:26:54,149 --> 00:26:50,720
question is concerned but i have to say

730
00:26:55,669 --> 00:26:54,159
that there is a pretty good looking case

731
00:26:57,190 --> 00:26:55,679
for saying

732
00:26:59,029 --> 00:26:57,200
that

733
00:27:02,470 --> 00:26:59,039
if the mind is to have any kind of

734
00:27:05,990 --> 00:27:02,480
effect within the physical natural realm

735
00:27:07,909 --> 00:27:06,000
it somehow has to be part of that realm

736
00:27:09,350 --> 00:27:07,919
um

737
00:27:10,630 --> 00:27:09,360
you know i'm not necessarily endorsing

738
00:27:12,630 --> 00:27:10,640
this argument but there's nothing

739
00:27:15,110 --> 00:27:12,640
there's a pretty good looking argument

740
00:27:16,950 --> 00:27:15,120
for saying that if the mind is to have

741
00:27:18,950 --> 00:27:16,960
effects within the physical world it

742
00:27:20,470 --> 00:27:18,960
must be physical because what we know of

743
00:27:22,950 --> 00:27:20,480
the physical world

744
00:27:25,990 --> 00:27:22,960
everywhere we look we find that physical

745
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:26,000
effects have physical causes and so if

746
00:27:29,909 --> 00:27:27,600
that is true

747
00:27:31,029 --> 00:27:29,919
then the mind must itself somehow be

748
00:27:33,110 --> 00:27:31,039
physical we're going to have to

749
00:27:35,750 --> 00:27:33,120
accommodate it within the physical in

750
00:27:38,070 --> 00:27:35,760
order to account for its ability to

751
00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:38,080
cause physical behavior for example

752
00:27:42,470 --> 00:27:40,240
whether isn't that a isn't that a fairly

753
00:27:45,430 --> 00:27:42,480
plausible looking argument perhaps but

754
00:27:47,269 --> 00:27:45,440
i'd say we better be damn sure that

755
00:27:51,110 --> 00:27:47,279
that's the way it is because we've built

756
00:27:53,909 --> 00:27:51,120
this edifice of scientism around that

757
00:27:55,750 --> 00:27:53,919
our whole culture is built on that and

758
00:27:58,149 --> 00:27:55,760
when we start seeing cracks in the

759
00:27:59,669 --> 00:27:58,159
foundation of that which i think we do

760
00:28:02,389 --> 00:27:59,679
and it sounds like you're at least

761
00:28:04,470 --> 00:28:02,399
somewhat open to examining those i think

762
00:28:07,750 --> 00:28:04,480
we really have to step back and look at

763
00:28:10,549 --> 00:28:07,760
what's at stake let me in that spirit

764
00:28:12,710 --> 00:28:10,559
return to your book believing [\h__\h]

765
00:28:14,710 --> 00:28:12,720
with another quote that i liked the more

766
00:28:16,789 --> 00:28:14,720
we appeal to mystery to get ourselves

767
00:28:19,190 --> 00:28:16,799
out of intellectual trouble the more we

768
00:28:21,590 --> 00:28:19,200
use it as a carpet under which to sweep

769
00:28:24,310 --> 00:28:21,600
inconvenient truths or discoveries the

770
00:28:27,750 --> 00:28:24,320
more vulnerable we become to deceit

771
00:28:28,830 --> 00:28:27,760
deceit by both others and by ourselves

772
00:28:31,750 --> 00:28:28,840
let me

773
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:31,760
juxtapose the quote from your book with

774
00:28:37,350 --> 00:28:34,720
a quote from biologist rupert sheldrick

775
00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:37,360
author of the science delusion one of

776
00:28:41,830 --> 00:28:39,440
these folks out there among many many

777
00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:41,840
that i've spoken with and are out there

778
00:28:46,950 --> 00:28:44,640
who kind of see this materialism

779
00:28:49,269 --> 00:28:46,960
scientific materialism and the position

780
00:28:51,750 --> 00:28:49,279
of the folks like richard dawkins as a

781
00:28:53,590 --> 00:28:51,760
major impediment to really moving

782
00:28:56,470 --> 00:28:53,600
forward and answering some of these big

783
00:28:58,630 --> 00:28:56,480
questions here's what sheldrick says

784
00:29:00,230 --> 00:28:58,640
for more than 200 years materialists

785
00:29:02,549 --> 00:29:00,240
have promised that science will

786
00:29:05,990 --> 00:29:02,559
eventually explain everything in terms

787
00:29:08,149 --> 00:29:06,000
of physics and chemistry these believers

788
00:29:10,870 --> 00:29:08,159
are sustained by the faith that

789
00:29:12,710 --> 00:29:10,880
scientific discoveries will justify

790
00:29:14,389 --> 00:29:12,720
their beliefs so of course he's been a

791
00:29:17,669 --> 00:29:14,399
little bit provocative in kind of using

792
00:29:20,630 --> 00:29:17,679
these words of religion but i i think he

793
00:29:23,510 --> 00:29:20,640
has a point when he talks about this

794
00:29:26,230 --> 00:29:23,520
promissory note of science and that

795
00:29:28,789 --> 00:29:26,240
really being a part of scientism of just

796
00:29:30,950 --> 00:29:28,799
hey wait a minute boys we got it covered

797
00:29:32,630 --> 00:29:30,960
just give us some more time when really

798
00:29:35,909 --> 00:29:32,640
when we look at the long history of

799
00:29:38,630 --> 00:29:35,919
science for the last 200 years we see

800
00:29:40,070 --> 00:29:38,640
progress in some areas and in other

801
00:29:41,830 --> 00:29:40,080
areas the kind of questions we're

802
00:29:44,870 --> 00:29:41,840
talking about in terms of

803
00:29:48,070 --> 00:29:44,880
consciousness in terms of meaning we see

804
00:29:49,430 --> 00:29:48,080
very little progress or or worse yet we

805
00:29:51,269 --> 00:29:49,440
see progress

806
00:29:53,430 --> 00:29:51,279
that's leading us in another direction

807
00:29:55,669 --> 00:29:53,440
that we're not willing to follow because

808
00:29:58,149 --> 00:29:55,679
we're married to this idea that unless

809
00:30:00,630 --> 00:29:58,159
we can measure everything then we're

810
00:30:02,870 --> 00:30:00,640
going to be lost right well i i i don't

811
00:30:05,430 --> 00:30:02,880
sign up to scientism if scientism is the

812
00:30:07,350 --> 00:30:05,440
view that ultimately every meaningful

813
00:30:09,990 --> 00:30:07,360
question can be answered by an

814
00:30:11,750 --> 00:30:10,000
application of the empirical sciences

815
00:30:14,310 --> 00:30:11,760
then i don't sign up to that but then

816
00:30:17,269 --> 00:30:14,320
the vast majority of scientists don't

817
00:30:18,950 --> 00:30:17,279
sign up to that either actually they

818
00:30:21,430 --> 00:30:18,960
acknowledge that moral questions for

819
00:30:23,669 --> 00:30:21,440
example are questions that science is

820
00:30:25,669 --> 00:30:23,679
not well placed to answer

821
00:30:27,590 --> 00:30:25,679
and many other questions too and in fact

822
00:30:29,669 --> 00:30:27,600
even richard dawkins in the god delusion

823
00:30:32,630 --> 00:30:29,679
makes it clear that he doesn't think

824
00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:32,640
that science can answer every question

825
00:30:39,029 --> 00:30:35,600
so very very few people actually are

826
00:30:41,430 --> 00:30:39,039
wedded to scientism um also very many

827
00:30:42,789 --> 00:30:41,440
scientists are not wedded to materialism

828
00:30:44,230 --> 00:30:42,799
because as a matter of fact they're

829
00:30:47,190 --> 00:30:44,240
religious

830
00:30:49,190 --> 00:30:47,200
right many christians are scientists

831
00:30:51,350 --> 00:30:49,200
they're clearly not materialists but

832
00:30:53,110 --> 00:30:51,360
they really do believe that by using

833
00:30:54,870 --> 00:30:53,120
science they can really understand a

834
00:30:57,029 --> 00:30:54,880
great deal of the world around us and

835
00:30:59,029 --> 00:30:57,039
indeed that science is the best tool for

836
00:31:01,750 --> 00:30:59,039
finding out about that world that we see

837
00:31:03,430 --> 00:31:01,760
around us so i just don't buy this oh

838
00:31:06,789 --> 00:31:03,440
science is all about materialism and

839
00:31:08,389 --> 00:31:06,799
scientism that just seems to me to be an

840
00:31:09,430 --> 00:31:08,399
excuse

841
00:31:12,389 --> 00:31:09,440
for

842
00:31:14,470 --> 00:31:12,399
a way of explaining a way why it is that

843
00:31:16,470 --> 00:31:14,480
maybe science scientists aren't signing

844
00:31:19,430 --> 00:31:16,480
up to what it is that sheldrake wants

845
00:31:21,909 --> 00:31:19,440
them to sign up to maybe well i i don't

846
00:31:24,149 --> 00:31:21,919
know on that last part i think there's a

847
00:31:26,789 --> 00:31:24,159
deeper point here when we talk about

848
00:31:27,830 --> 00:31:26,799
scientific materialism and this idea

849
00:31:29,590 --> 00:31:27,840
that

850
00:31:32,630 --> 00:31:29,600
you know when it comes down to it

851
00:31:33,909 --> 00:31:32,640
science is nothing if we can't measure

852
00:31:36,070 --> 00:31:33,919
things right

853
00:31:38,789 --> 00:31:36,080
and the notion that

854
00:31:41,430 --> 00:31:38,799
we are something more than our brain

855
00:31:43,830 --> 00:31:41,440
that mind equals brain isn't true we are

856
00:31:45,830 --> 00:31:43,840
not biological robots and you said

857
00:31:48,230 --> 00:31:45,840
earlier that falsifying that doesn't

858
00:31:50,310 --> 00:31:48,240
mean an end to atheism and we could go

859
00:31:52,870 --> 00:31:50,320
off on that discussion i think to a

860
00:31:56,149 --> 00:31:52,880
certain extent falsifying that does

861
00:31:58,389 --> 00:31:56,159
bring an end to scientific materialism

862
00:32:01,590 --> 00:31:58,399
in a way that it's currently deeply

863
00:32:04,070 --> 00:32:01,600
deeply embedded into our

864
00:32:07,110 --> 00:32:04,080
culture certainly into our academics and

865
00:32:09,830 --> 00:32:07,120
that is that you know what if mind does

866
00:32:11,750 --> 00:32:09,840
not equal brain if your mind isn't

867
00:32:14,389 --> 00:32:11,760
solely a result

868
00:32:16,470 --> 00:32:14,399
of the chemical neural activity

869
00:32:18,470 --> 00:32:16,480
inside your brain right now then we got

870
00:32:20,470 --> 00:32:18,480
a huge measurement problem and we have

871
00:32:22,710 --> 00:32:20,480
to start asking questions like you know

872
00:32:24,470 --> 00:32:22,720
how many angels fit on the head of a pin

873
00:32:26,630 --> 00:32:24,480
those kind of questions that we do you

874
00:32:29,430 --> 00:32:26,640
know we left long ago because we

875
00:32:31,269 --> 00:32:29,440
realized where they take us but i really

876
00:32:33,430 --> 00:32:31,279
think i don't know how you get around it

877
00:32:36,230 --> 00:32:33,440
from a philosophical standpoint i think

878
00:32:38,549 --> 00:32:36,240
that's what's at stake with this mind

879
00:32:41,350 --> 00:32:38,559
equals mind equals brain problem

880
00:32:42,389 --> 00:32:41,360
well i can see i can see that

881
00:32:44,549 --> 00:32:42,399
what you're doing there is you're saying

882
00:32:46,710 --> 00:32:44,559
well look here's a there's a veil here

883
00:32:48,230 --> 00:32:46,720
and the stuff this side of the veil i

884
00:32:50,389 --> 00:32:48,240
can put my tape measure up against it

885
00:32:52,149 --> 00:32:50,399
and i can measure it but hey if there's

886
00:32:53,669 --> 00:32:52,159
stuff behind the veil and i can't i

887
00:32:55,830 --> 00:32:53,679
can't get my tape measure back there and

888
00:32:58,230 --> 00:32:55,840
do the measuring because it's the mind

889
00:32:59,830 --> 00:32:58,240
and the mind isn't physical even

890
00:33:02,389 --> 00:32:59,840
then there's a real problem about

891
00:33:04,549 --> 00:33:02,399
scientific investigation of that

892
00:33:06,389 --> 00:33:04,559
phenomenon but i don't think i'm saying

893
00:33:08,310 --> 00:33:06,399
that i think that's what stephen hawking

894
00:33:09,830 --> 00:33:08,320
is saying i think that's what

895
00:33:12,149 --> 00:33:09,840
richard dawkin is saying i think that's

896
00:33:14,230 --> 00:33:12,159
what a lot of people are saying her like

897
00:33:16,789 --> 00:33:14,240
hey don't really go there too far

898
00:33:18,389 --> 00:33:16,799
because you don't want to fully embrace

899
00:33:19,830 --> 00:33:18,399
what that means but tell me why you

900
00:33:23,029 --> 00:33:19,840
don't think that's

901
00:33:24,630 --> 00:33:23,039
well just because something

902
00:33:26,230 --> 00:33:24,640
is not

903
00:33:28,230 --> 00:33:26,240
observable

904
00:33:30,190 --> 00:33:28,240
um doesn't mean that it's not

905
00:33:33,110 --> 00:33:30,200
scientifically

906
00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:33,120
investigable and science deals with well

907
00:33:35,909 --> 00:33:34,480
hello

908
00:33:37,669 --> 00:33:35,919
wait a minute i don't think that's true

909
00:33:39,430 --> 00:33:37,679
tell me tell me how that could

910
00:33:41,269 --> 00:33:39,440
how could we measure something we can't

911
00:33:43,110 --> 00:33:41,279
observe well you can investigate things

912
00:33:44,950 --> 00:33:43,120
by investigating their effects you can't

913
00:33:46,710 --> 00:33:44,960
observe electrons

914
00:33:49,350 --> 00:33:46,720
you can't observe

915
00:33:52,470 --> 00:33:49,360
the distant past of this planet you

916
00:33:54,470 --> 00:33:52,480
cannot observe a living dinosaur

917
00:33:57,430 --> 00:33:54,480
um all of these things are beyond our

918
00:33:59,350 --> 00:33:57,440
ability to observe but we can still draw

919
00:34:01,350 --> 00:33:59,360
reasonable conclusions about these

920
00:34:02,630 --> 00:34:01,360
portions these unobserved portions of

921
00:34:03,990 --> 00:34:02,640
reality

922
00:34:06,630 --> 00:34:04,000
by

923
00:34:07,430 --> 00:34:06,640
thinking through the consequences

924
00:34:09,829 --> 00:34:07,440
of

925
00:34:12,149 --> 00:34:09,839
beliefs in such things if it's true that

926
00:34:15,030 --> 00:34:12,159
dinosaurs once roamed the earth then we

927
00:34:17,589 --> 00:34:15,040
should find certain things

928
00:34:19,270 --> 00:34:17,599
embedded in the ground now for example

929
00:34:21,430 --> 00:34:19,280
there should be certain clues that we

930
00:34:24,069 --> 00:34:21,440
should be able to discover if it's true

931
00:34:26,790 --> 00:34:24,079
that crystals have certain effects on

932
00:34:29,669 --> 00:34:26,800
people's psyches by some supernatural

933
00:34:31,510 --> 00:34:29,679
means we can do some experiments to see

934
00:34:33,030 --> 00:34:31,520
double blind experiments to see whether

935
00:34:35,669 --> 00:34:33,040
or not the crystals have those kinds of

936
00:34:38,069 --> 00:34:35,679
effects if prayer has the ability to

937
00:34:39,589 --> 00:34:38,079
cure people then we can do again

938
00:34:41,750 --> 00:34:39,599
double-blind experiments and they've

939
00:34:44,149 --> 00:34:41,760
been done to see whether petitionary

940
00:34:46,790 --> 00:34:44,159
prayer really does have the ability to

941
00:34:49,270 --> 00:34:46,800
cure heart patients so so just because

942
00:34:51,829 --> 00:34:49,280
the just because the phenomenon itself

943
00:34:53,750 --> 00:34:51,839
is behind the screen doesn't mean that

944
00:34:55,270 --> 00:34:53,760
you can't actually empirically

945
00:34:56,869 --> 00:34:55,280
investigate it and i thought that

946
00:35:00,310 --> 00:34:56,879
actually rupert sheldrake was very much

947
00:35:02,150 --> 00:35:00,320
in favor of that kind of investigation

948
00:35:04,950 --> 00:35:02,160
i think he is but i think what he's

949
00:35:06,710 --> 00:35:04,960
alluding to is that we have to be

950
00:35:08,870 --> 00:35:06,720
cautious in the same way you're talking

951
00:35:10,870 --> 00:35:08,880
about in a way that's why i like to

952
00:35:12,470 --> 00:35:10,880
juxtapose those two quotes yours and his

953
00:35:14,470 --> 00:35:12,480
because in a way you're talking about

954
00:35:16,630 --> 00:35:14,480
the same thing about sweeping mystery

955
00:35:18,069 --> 00:35:16,640
under the rug and what sheldrick is

956
00:35:21,270 --> 00:35:18,079
warning us is

957
00:35:23,910 --> 00:35:21,280
don't think that science isn't already

958
00:35:26,230 --> 00:35:23,920
sweeping a whole lot of mystery under

959
00:35:27,829 --> 00:35:26,240
the rug i i always think of the quote

960
00:35:29,990 --> 00:35:27,839
from the famous

961
00:35:31,990 --> 00:35:30,000
physicist richard feynman who says

962
00:35:34,950 --> 00:35:32,000
anyone who claims to understand quantum

963
00:35:38,390 --> 00:35:34,960
theory is either lying or crazy right so

964
00:35:40,790 --> 00:35:38,400
there's a whole lot of mystery that is

965
00:35:43,270 --> 00:35:40,800
at the core of physics as we understand

966
00:35:45,270 --> 00:35:43,280
it that we just conveniently sweep under

967
00:35:47,589 --> 00:35:45,280
the rug because we don't want to deal

968
00:35:49,670 --> 00:35:47,599
with it or as you put it we put it on

969
00:35:51,430 --> 00:35:49,680
the other side of the veil and say oh we

970
00:35:53,430 --> 00:35:51,440
can't really understand it but we can

971
00:35:55,430 --> 00:35:53,440
kind of fool around with measuring these

972
00:35:56,950 --> 00:35:55,440
effects when i think what you've really

973
00:35:59,829 --> 00:35:56,960
done is you've kind of switched the game

974
00:36:02,310 --> 00:35:59,839
here because the game was about

975
00:36:04,069 --> 00:36:02,320
that we have this closed loop system

976
00:36:06,069 --> 00:36:04,079
everything that is physical is

977
00:36:08,230 --> 00:36:06,079
manifested in a way that we can measure

978
00:36:10,150 --> 00:36:08,240
and measure it and if we change that

979
00:36:11,750 --> 00:36:10,160
assumption i really think we've kind of

980
00:36:12,630 --> 00:36:11,760
changed the game in a fundamental way

981
00:36:14,870 --> 00:36:12,640
but

982
00:36:17,030 --> 00:36:14,880
obviously you kind of see it somewhat

983
00:36:17,829 --> 00:36:17,040
differently i have no problem at all

984
00:36:21,430 --> 00:36:17,839
with

985
00:36:22,870 --> 00:36:21,440
acknowledging that some things are

986
00:36:24,829 --> 00:36:22,880
currently beyond our understanding and

987
00:36:27,910 --> 00:36:24,839
maybe in principle beyond our

988
00:36:29,670 --> 00:36:27,920
understanding um my problem is with

989
00:36:33,270 --> 00:36:29,680
those who

990
00:36:35,670 --> 00:36:33,280
when their belief in some phenomenon

991
00:36:37,510 --> 00:36:35,680
has been challenged

992
00:36:39,030 --> 00:36:37,520
they say

993
00:36:40,550 --> 00:36:39,040
you know there's a serious intellectual

994
00:36:42,230 --> 00:36:40,560
threat the evidence very strongly

995
00:36:44,069 --> 00:36:42,240
suggests that what they believe is not

996
00:36:46,069 --> 00:36:44,079
true say they believe in petitionary

997
00:36:48,550 --> 00:36:46,079
prayer or they believe that miracles

998
00:36:50,950 --> 00:36:48,560
have some so um crystals have some

999
00:36:52,870 --> 00:36:50,960
amazing effect on people's psyche and

1000
00:36:54,470 --> 00:36:52,880
the experiments are done and the

1001
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:54,480
evidence is in and it looks very much as

1002
00:36:58,550 --> 00:36:56,560
if it's simply not true and they respond

1003
00:37:00,630 --> 00:36:58,560
by saying yes but there are more things

1004
00:37:02,710 --> 00:37:00,640
in heaven and hell than a dreamt of in

1005
00:37:04,390 --> 00:37:02,720
your philosophy correct that's what they

1006
00:37:06,150 --> 00:37:04,400
say at that point and what they're doing

1007
00:37:08,390 --> 00:37:06,160
now is they're using the veil as an

1008
00:37:09,990 --> 00:37:08,400
immunizing device to protect what they

1009
00:37:13,670 --> 00:37:10,000
believe

1010
00:37:15,270 --> 00:37:13,680
from any kind of threat and now that is

1011
00:37:17,990 --> 00:37:15,280
it seems to me intellectually very

1012
00:37:20,470 --> 00:37:18,000
dubious indeed to some extent we all do

1013
00:37:22,390 --> 00:37:20,480
that a little bit but the more you do it

1014
00:37:25,109 --> 00:37:22,400
the more vulnerable you become to

1015
00:37:28,069 --> 00:37:25,119
deceive by others and by yourself you

1016
00:37:29,589 --> 00:37:28,079
end up kidding yourself in the end so

1017
00:37:31,030 --> 00:37:29,599
it's that kind of appeal to mystery that

1018
00:37:33,109 --> 00:37:31,040
bothers me i have no problem with

1019
00:37:35,270 --> 00:37:33,119
mystery hey there are plenty of them and

1020
00:37:37,190 --> 00:37:35,280
they inspire us to keep looking and keep

1021
00:37:39,190 --> 00:37:37,200
searching and it may be that some will

1022
00:37:41,670 --> 00:37:39,200
never be solved and it may be that they

1023
00:37:45,190 --> 00:37:41,680
are necessarily unsolvable but let's not

1024
00:37:46,950 --> 00:37:45,200
use mystery as a kind of get out of jail

1025
00:37:48,710 --> 00:37:46,960
card whenever we find ourselves cornered

1026
00:37:49,750 --> 00:37:48,720
in an argument i mean that's that's not

1027
00:37:51,990 --> 00:37:49,760
all

1028
00:37:54,870 --> 00:37:52,000
no fair enough but as you know you're

1029
00:37:57,430 --> 00:37:54,880
also provost for the center for inquiry

1030
00:38:00,150 --> 00:37:57,440
in the uk which i'm not sure how it's

1031
00:38:01,430 --> 00:38:00,160
perceived in the uk but in the u.s is

1032
00:38:03,990 --> 00:38:01,440
known as

1033
00:38:07,030 --> 00:38:04,000
basically a debunking organization for

1034
00:38:10,069 --> 00:38:07,040
all manner of paranormal claims and that

1035
00:38:11,589 --> 00:38:10,079
kind of leads me into directly into this

1036
00:38:13,750 --> 00:38:11,599
last topic i want to talk to you about

1037
00:38:15,109 --> 00:38:13,760
in terms of philosophy of science and

1038
00:38:16,710 --> 00:38:15,119
gosh as you were saying that what just

1039
00:38:18,550 --> 00:38:16,720
kept ringing through my ears is what i

1040
00:38:20,310 --> 00:38:18,560
hear all the time this idea of

1041
00:38:22,150 --> 00:38:20,320
extraordinary claims require

1042
00:38:25,829 --> 00:38:22,160
extraordinary proof i mean you want to

1043
00:38:27,750 --> 00:38:25,839
talk about sweeping mystery sweeping

1044
00:38:32,310 --> 00:38:27,760
evidence that you don't like under the

1045
00:38:35,190 --> 00:38:32,320
rug here is the mantra that the whole

1046
00:38:36,230 --> 00:38:35,200
center for inquiry crowd pulls out i

1047
00:38:38,470 --> 00:38:36,240
mean

1048
00:38:41,910 --> 00:38:38,480
i guess i should start with that

1049
00:38:43,109 --> 00:38:41,920
i see that as just an intellectually

1050
00:38:45,510 --> 00:38:43,119
feeble

1051
00:38:48,230 --> 00:38:45,520
kind of pronouncement extraordinary

1052
00:38:53,030 --> 00:38:48,240
claims require extraordinary proof that

1053
00:38:56,550 --> 00:38:54,710
why do you think that

1054
00:38:59,510 --> 00:38:56,560
well well we've built this whole

1055
00:39:01,829 --> 00:38:59,520
institution of science the whole process

1056
00:39:04,390 --> 00:39:01,839
of peer review the whole process of

1057
00:39:08,390 --> 00:39:04,400
self-correction around this idea that

1058
00:39:11,109 --> 00:39:08,400
that we will all together discover what

1059
00:39:14,470 --> 00:39:11,119
is real what is not real what is

1060
00:39:17,109 --> 00:39:14,480
extraordinary what is not extraordinary

1061
00:39:19,270 --> 00:39:17,119
so then the idea that that kind of after

1062
00:39:21,510 --> 00:39:19,280
the fact after the results come in we

1063
00:39:23,349 --> 00:39:21,520
say you know that's pretty interesting

1064
00:39:26,230 --> 00:39:23,359
results but i deem that to be

1065
00:39:28,950 --> 00:39:26,240
extraordinary therefore you need an

1066
00:39:31,670 --> 00:39:28,960
extra level of proof on that i i i just

1067
00:39:33,109 --> 00:39:31,680
think is is just silly

1068
00:39:34,470 --> 00:39:33,119
oh okay i think that's where you're

1069
00:39:36,870 --> 00:39:34,480
coming from well the way i have

1070
00:39:38,710 --> 00:39:36,880
understood uh that principle

1071
00:39:40,950 --> 00:39:38,720
extraordinary claims require

1072
00:39:44,790 --> 00:39:40,960
extraordinary evidence is

1073
00:39:46,710 --> 00:39:44,800
that well i mean suppose suppose um

1074
00:39:49,430 --> 00:39:46,720
i tell you that over there

1075
00:39:52,069 --> 00:39:49,440
um i've got uh

1076
00:39:54,710 --> 00:39:52,079
a mobile phone and a cup okay

1077
00:39:56,950 --> 00:39:54,720
um and i do this there's the mobile

1078
00:39:58,710 --> 00:39:56,960
phone in the cup um you're gonna go hey

1079
00:40:00,950 --> 00:39:58,720
yeah that's good enough for me

1080
00:40:03,349 --> 00:40:00,960
steve's got a mobile phone and a cup if

1081
00:40:05,030 --> 00:40:03,359
i now wheel out a um a fairy which i may

1082
00:40:06,310 --> 00:40:05,040
dance on the end of my finger and i go

1083
00:40:08,069 --> 00:40:06,320
there you go ferry on the end of my

1084
00:40:09,430 --> 00:40:08,079
finger okay are you gonna go yeah

1085
00:40:11,190 --> 00:40:09,440
steve's got a fury on the end of his

1086
00:40:14,710 --> 00:40:11,200
finger i'll just take his that fair

1087
00:40:16,870 --> 00:40:14,720
enough i'll i'll i'll accept that while

1088
00:40:18,230 --> 00:40:16,880
on on this on the basis of the same kind

1089
00:40:20,550 --> 00:40:18,240
of evidence that i accept that he's got

1090
00:40:22,390 --> 00:40:20,560
a cup on my mobile phone i bet you would

1091
00:40:23,829 --> 00:40:22,400
not sure sure but we're talking about

1092
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:23,839
we're talking about science here we're

1093
00:40:27,510 --> 00:40:25,520
talking about peer review here's the

1094
00:40:29,270 --> 00:40:27,520
example that i i sent you and i have

1095
00:40:31,829 --> 00:40:29,280
personal experience with because he told

1096
00:40:34,310 --> 00:40:31,839
it to me and we discussed it on this

1097
00:40:36,870 --> 00:40:34,320
show and that's british psychologist and

1098
00:40:39,510 --> 00:40:36,880
parapsychology critic richard wiseman

1099
00:40:42,310 --> 00:40:39,520
who has investigated probably more of

1100
00:40:44,230 --> 00:40:42,320
these paranormal parapsychology

1101
00:40:46,870 --> 00:40:44,240
claims like telepathy than just about

1102
00:40:49,349 --> 00:40:46,880
anybody else and here's his quote

1103
00:40:51,910 --> 00:40:49,359
i agree that by the standards of any

1104
00:40:54,390 --> 00:40:51,920
other area of science that remote

1105
00:40:55,589 --> 00:40:54,400
viewing and he later added in this quote

1106
00:40:57,990 --> 00:40:55,599
esp

1107
00:40:59,990 --> 00:40:58,000
is proven but that begs the question do

1108
00:41:02,710 --> 00:41:00,000
we need higher standards of evidence

1109
00:41:04,950 --> 00:41:02,720
when we study the paranormal so stephen

1110
00:41:06,790 --> 00:41:04,960
this is not you know the fairy in the

1111
00:41:09,270 --> 00:41:06,800
cup over here this is a guy who's

1112
00:41:11,349 --> 00:41:09,280
reviewed hundreds of peer-reviewed

1113
00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:11,359
papers and saying you know what

1114
00:41:17,270 --> 00:41:14,160
it's good enough for any other field but

1115
00:41:18,109 --> 00:41:17,280
you know what not good enough because of

1116
00:41:19,670 --> 00:41:18,119
the

1117
00:41:23,030 --> 00:41:19,680
groundbreaking

1118
00:41:25,109 --> 00:41:23,040
kind of upset it would make for science

1119
00:41:26,870 --> 00:41:25,119
i think this is the best evidence i

1120
00:41:31,030 --> 00:41:26,880
could give you for my claim about

1121
00:41:35,990 --> 00:41:31,040
scientific materialism being woven into

1122
00:41:39,430 --> 00:41:37,910
presumably you wouldn't accept you know

1123
00:41:41,190 --> 00:41:39,440
if i stick my finger out there and there

1124
00:41:43,030 --> 00:41:41,200
appears to be a finger a sort of fairy

1125
00:41:44,950 --> 00:41:43,040
spinning around on the end of it you're

1126
00:41:46,390 --> 00:41:44,960
going to be very very suspicious you're

1127
00:41:48,069 --> 00:41:46,400
not just going to say

1128
00:41:51,670 --> 00:41:48,079
yeah steven's proved to me that there

1129
00:41:54,309 --> 00:41:51,680
are fairies uh you're gonna require

1130
00:41:55,990 --> 00:41:54,319
a much more investigation before you

1131
00:41:57,750 --> 00:41:56,000
take my word for it that there really is

1132
00:41:59,910 --> 00:41:57,760
a fairies uh spinning around on the end

1133
00:42:00,870 --> 00:41:59,920
of my finger and why is that it's

1134
00:42:01,990 --> 00:42:00,880
because

1135
00:42:03,990 --> 00:42:02,000
you know

1136
00:42:06,470 --> 00:42:04,000
the the prior probability that anything

1137
00:42:08,870 --> 00:42:06,480
like a theory exists is very very low

1138
00:42:10,390 --> 00:42:08,880
indeed knowing what we do you know given

1139
00:42:12,150 --> 00:42:10,400
our background

1140
00:42:13,670 --> 00:42:12,160
you you don't even believe this you

1141
00:42:17,270 --> 00:42:13,680
don't even believe this yourself again

1142
00:42:21,030 --> 00:42:17,280
the quote is by by the standards of any

1143
00:42:24,470 --> 00:42:21,040
other area of science this is proven he

1144
00:42:27,270 --> 00:42:24,480
is talking about creating another level

1145
00:42:30,150 --> 00:42:27,280
of proof a completely arbitrary level of

1146
00:42:32,470 --> 00:42:30,160
proof based on his beliefs of what is

1147
00:42:35,430 --> 00:42:32,480
extraordinary in terms of a claim and

1148
00:42:37,589 --> 00:42:35,440
extraordinary in terms of proof

1149
00:42:39,750 --> 00:42:37,599
there's no way to intellectually defend

1150
00:42:41,589 --> 00:42:39,760
this statement it's but it is

1151
00:42:43,349 --> 00:42:41,599
there is because look i mean when the

1152
00:42:44,870 --> 00:42:43,359
scientist what the scientist is there

1153
00:42:47,270 --> 00:42:44,880
are certain things that the scientist is

1154
00:42:48,950 --> 00:42:47,280
going to take as rig you know um

1155
00:42:50,230 --> 00:42:48,960
he's going to take it that the dial

1156
00:42:51,670 --> 00:42:50,240
really does you know that really is

1157
00:42:52,710 --> 00:42:51,680
number one on the dial he can see it

1158
00:42:55,030 --> 00:42:52,720
right there

1159
00:42:57,510 --> 00:42:55,040
um that that that's not going to be a

1160
00:42:59,349 --> 00:42:57,520
problem so far so far as uh he's

1161
00:43:01,910 --> 00:42:59,359
concerned or she is concerned it's not

1162
00:43:04,309 --> 00:43:01,920
being sexist about this okay so there

1163
00:43:05,670 --> 00:43:04,319
are certain things that uh

1164
00:43:07,910 --> 00:43:05,680
we're going to take on the basis of

1165
00:43:09,190 --> 00:43:07,920
that's just how things appear to be and

1166
00:43:11,190 --> 00:43:09,200
scientists do that even in the

1167
00:43:12,790 --> 00:43:11,200
laboratory they're going to do that

1168
00:43:14,150 --> 00:43:12,800
although they'll hopefully go away and

1169
00:43:15,510 --> 00:43:14,160
repeat the experiment and other people

1170
00:43:16,470 --> 00:43:15,520
will do the same kind of thing but again

1171
00:43:19,190 --> 00:43:16,480
they'll just look at the doll and say

1172
00:43:21,750 --> 00:43:19,200
yeah number one okay let's carry on so

1173
00:43:24,150 --> 00:43:21,760
it's not it's it's not the extent to

1174
00:43:26,950 --> 00:43:24,160
which we raise the evidential bar

1175
00:43:28,950 --> 00:43:26,960
depends on

1176
00:43:32,309 --> 00:43:28,960
just how

1177
00:43:35,190 --> 00:43:32,319
extraordinary the claim is how unlikely

1178
00:43:36,950 --> 00:43:35,200
how likely it is that we would

1179
00:43:40,069 --> 00:43:36,960
have the evidence if the claim is true

1180
00:43:42,309 --> 00:43:40,079
and how unlikely it would be that we

1181
00:43:44,390 --> 00:43:42,319
would have the evidence if the claim

1182
00:43:46,150 --> 00:43:44,400
wasn't true but isn't that what science

1183
00:43:48,069 --> 00:43:46,160
is doing isn't that what science is

1184
00:43:50,069 --> 00:43:48,079
doing all the time isn't that what the

1185
00:43:52,870 --> 00:43:50,079
peer review process is doing is

1186
00:43:54,790 --> 00:43:52,880
determining what evidence we already

1187
00:43:55,990 --> 00:43:54,800
have as our base what new evidence we

1188
00:43:57,270 --> 00:43:56,000
should consider

1189
00:43:58,790 --> 00:43:57,280
why

1190
00:44:00,150 --> 00:43:58,800
maybe your maybe your view is that you

1191
00:44:01,510 --> 00:44:00,160
know there is already an awful lot of

1192
00:44:04,309 --> 00:44:01,520
evidence in

1193
00:44:06,150 --> 00:44:04,319
for the existence of psychic powers uh

1194
00:44:08,470 --> 00:44:06,160
say enough evidence that by the

1195
00:44:10,790 --> 00:44:08,480
standards of any other area of science

1196
00:44:12,790 --> 00:44:10,800
it's proven those are are wise men's

1197
00:44:14,069 --> 00:44:12,800
words yeah that's true

1198
00:44:16,150 --> 00:44:14,079
i can't comment on that because i'm not

1199
00:44:18,069 --> 00:44:16,160
an expert on that area of science but

1200
00:44:20,230 --> 00:44:18,079
let's suppose that that's true um i

1201
00:44:21,910 --> 00:44:20,240
guess what wiseman is

1202
00:44:23,990 --> 00:44:21,920
saying here i mean and that might be

1203
00:44:26,790 --> 00:44:24,000
true for what i know um

1204
00:44:28,550 --> 00:44:26,800
and it's not that i would i would

1205
00:44:30,390 --> 00:44:28,560
always refuse to believe that there was

1206
00:44:32,790 --> 00:44:30,400
psychic powers as a matter of fact i

1207
00:44:36,470 --> 00:44:32,800
don't um but i'm certainly open to

1208
00:44:37,990 --> 00:44:36,480
persuasion but i know for example that

1209
00:44:40,630 --> 00:44:38,000
scientists

1210
00:44:43,349 --> 00:44:40,640
can be a little bit unreliable when it

1211
00:44:46,069 --> 00:44:43,359
comes to investigating psychic phenomena

1212
00:44:48,550 --> 00:44:46,079
they have been duped they had their it's

1213
00:44:50,790 --> 00:44:48,560
on record it has been established that

1214
00:44:53,349 --> 00:44:50,800
scientists are really really good when

1215
00:44:55,270 --> 00:44:53,359
it comes to chemicals in a petri dish

1216
00:44:57,349 --> 00:44:55,280
but when it comes to a couple of people

1217
00:44:59,589 --> 00:44:57,359
in front of them they can they are

1218
00:45:01,829 --> 00:44:59,599
vulnerable to the same kind of

1219
00:45:03,750 --> 00:45:01,839
moves into seeds that the rest of us are

1220
00:45:05,910 --> 00:45:03,760
it turns out they don't have any special

1221
00:45:08,790 --> 00:45:05,920
expertise when it comes to investigating

1222
00:45:10,710 --> 00:45:08,800
someone like yuri gellar for example it

1223
00:45:12,230 --> 00:45:10,720
turns out that they are they will fall

1224
00:45:13,510 --> 00:45:12,240
for the same tricks as the man in the

1225
00:45:16,069 --> 00:45:13,520
street so

1226
00:45:18,470 --> 00:45:16,079
you have to be extra extra specially

1227
00:45:20,470 --> 00:45:18,480
careful when it comes to investigating

1228
00:45:21,750 --> 00:45:20,480
those kinds of things and

1229
00:45:23,750 --> 00:45:21,760
i i can't believe that you would

1230
00:45:27,750 --> 00:45:23,760
disagree with me about that would you

1231
00:45:30,870 --> 00:45:27,760
intellectual black hole alert dr law

1232
00:45:33,430 --> 00:45:30,880
this is exactly what you preach against

1233
00:45:36,309 --> 00:45:33,440
in is that we are going to layer on top

1234
00:45:38,710 --> 00:45:36,319
of this without any proof without any

1235
00:45:41,109 --> 00:45:38,720
evidence i mean if that's your claim

1236
00:45:43,670 --> 00:45:41,119
then someone needs to prove that as

1237
00:45:45,510 --> 00:45:43,680
they've tried to do so many times and as

1238
00:45:47,270 --> 00:45:45,520
the social scientists

1239
00:45:48,870 --> 00:45:47,280
well wait a minute they really we could

1240
00:45:51,190 --> 00:45:48,880
get into that evidence and talk about

1241
00:45:53,430 --> 00:45:51,200
that but i think what you'd find is that

1242
00:45:54,109 --> 00:45:53,440
all the work that's been done suggests

1243
00:45:57,349 --> 00:45:54,119
that

1244
00:46:00,550 --> 00:45:57,359
parapsychology stands above virtually

1245
00:46:03,589 --> 00:46:00,560
every other area of science in terms of

1246
00:46:06,309 --> 00:46:03,599
controlling for these kinds of

1247
00:46:08,790 --> 00:46:06,319
lack of controls because they've been

1248
00:46:10,630 --> 00:46:08,800
under such scrutiny for the last 50

1249
00:46:12,870 --> 00:46:10,640
years that they're more aware of this

1250
00:46:15,190 --> 00:46:12,880
than anyone else that's what the hard

1251
00:46:17,990 --> 00:46:15,200
date that's what the hard data tells us

1252
00:46:19,750 --> 00:46:18,000
but i i again i just think the idea that

1253
00:46:22,950 --> 00:46:19,760
that we need to

1254
00:46:25,349 --> 00:46:22,960
kind of layer on top of science

1255
00:46:28,790 --> 00:46:25,359
the the center for a lot of these people

1256
00:46:30,550 --> 00:46:28,800
are investigating and finding nothing

1257
00:46:32,390 --> 00:46:30,560
they can't replicate the experiments

1258
00:46:33,990 --> 00:46:32,400
they do not get the same results when

1259
00:46:37,190 --> 00:46:34,000
they repeat the experiments that

1260
00:46:38,470 --> 00:46:37,200
supposedly show the psychic effect there

1261
00:46:41,349 --> 00:46:38,480
is not the repeating that you would

1262
00:46:44,230 --> 00:46:41,359
expect and so at the very least you

1263
00:46:45,829 --> 00:46:44,240
should be a little bit skeptical here

1264
00:46:46,790 --> 00:46:45,839
you know you shouldn't just assume that

1265
00:46:48,309 --> 00:46:46,800
the reason they're not getting the

1266
00:46:49,349 --> 00:46:48,319
result with the results when wiseman

1267
00:46:50,470 --> 00:46:49,359
does the experiment he doesn't get the

1268
00:46:51,670 --> 00:46:50,480
results when chris french does the

1269
00:46:53,589 --> 00:46:51,680
experiment he doesn't get the results

1270
00:46:55,349 --> 00:46:53,599
when randy does the experiment he

1271
00:46:58,870 --> 00:46:55,359
doesn't get the results but rihanna

1272
00:47:01,430 --> 00:46:58,880
randy you really want to throw randy in

1273
00:47:03,430 --> 00:47:01,440
into a serious scientific debate and

1274
00:47:05,190 --> 00:47:03,440
again if that's your claim if that's

1275
00:47:07,349 --> 00:47:05,200
your claim then you would you would have

1276
00:47:10,230 --> 00:47:07,359
to back that you would have to back that

1277
00:47:12,790 --> 00:47:10,240
up i think we're going to get way into

1278
00:47:14,230 --> 00:47:12,800
uh you know the details of those

1279
00:47:16,630 --> 00:47:14,240
experiments which we've done on this

1280
00:47:19,910 --> 00:47:16,640
show many times but it's really i think

1281
00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:19,920
uh probably outside of the the aim of

1282
00:47:23,750 --> 00:47:21,760
having you on and talking about the

1283
00:47:26,230 --> 00:47:23,760
philosophy of it which i think you've

1284
00:47:28,470 --> 00:47:26,240
handled in a in an admirable way and

1285
00:47:29,510 --> 00:47:28,480
i've used up i think about all of our

1286
00:47:31,030 --> 00:47:29,520
time

1287
00:47:32,870 --> 00:47:31,040
let's switch gears for a minute if we

1288
00:47:35,990 --> 00:47:32,880
could and get off

1289
00:47:38,230 --> 00:47:36,000
oh go go ahead no no please punish it

1290
00:47:40,790 --> 00:47:38,240
the principle that extraordinary claims

1291
00:47:43,750 --> 00:47:40,800
require extraordinary evidence i think

1292
00:47:45,270 --> 00:47:43,760
actually is is self-evidently true if

1293
00:47:47,990 --> 00:47:45,280
you think about it in the right kind of

1294
00:47:49,670 --> 00:47:48,000
way and in fact you if you understand it

1295
00:47:51,990 --> 00:47:49,680
in the right kind of way certainly if i

1296
00:47:53,190 --> 00:47:52,000
claim to have a thing a fairy you know

1297
00:47:54,870 --> 00:47:53,200
in front of you and i show you what

1298
00:47:57,510 --> 00:47:54,880
appears to be a fairy on your little tv

1299
00:47:58,790 --> 00:47:57,520
screen there dancing away on my hand you

1300
00:48:00,390 --> 00:47:58,800
you're not just you're not going to take

1301
00:48:01,670 --> 00:48:00,400
that at face value in the same way that

1302
00:48:03,910 --> 00:48:01,680
you would take it that i have a cup of

1303
00:48:05,990 --> 00:48:03,920
my hand clearly as the claim becomes

1304
00:48:08,150 --> 00:48:06,000
more and more extraordinary so the

1305
00:48:09,589 --> 00:48:08,160
evidential bar has to be raised and we

1306
00:48:11,829 --> 00:48:09,599
all know that and when it comes to

1307
00:48:13,910 --> 00:48:11,839
claims about psychic powers and so on

1308
00:48:16,870 --> 00:48:13,920
these are very very extraordinary claims

1309
00:48:18,630 --> 00:48:16,880
they do not fit in with our theory our

1310
00:48:20,150 --> 00:48:18,640
best understanding of how the universe

1311
00:48:21,349 --> 00:48:20,160
works and so if you're going to make

1312
00:48:23,589 --> 00:48:21,359
those claims you're going to have to

1313
00:48:25,589 --> 00:48:23,599
have better evidence than the kind of

1314
00:48:27,829 --> 00:48:25,599
evidence that you would already or you

1315
00:48:29,670 --> 00:48:27,839
know ordinarily expect to have the

1316
00:48:31,190 --> 00:48:29,680
principle that extraordinary claims

1317
00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:31,200
require extraordinary evidence seems to

1318
00:48:33,990 --> 00:48:33,119
me a very sensible

1319
00:48:36,470 --> 00:48:34,000
client

1320
00:48:38,790 --> 00:48:36,480
well well it it seems sensible in the

1321
00:48:40,470 --> 00:48:38,800
same way that communism seems sensible

1322
00:48:43,430 --> 00:48:40,480
and that we should share everything

1323
00:48:45,430 --> 00:48:43,440
among everyone except the devil of

1324
00:48:48,549 --> 00:48:45,440
course is in the details and that's who

1325
00:48:51,430 --> 00:48:48,559
decides what is shared with whom and so

1326
00:48:53,670 --> 00:48:51,440
is the problem with extraordinary claims

1327
00:48:55,829 --> 00:48:53,680
require extraordinary proof who will

1328
00:48:57,190 --> 00:48:55,839
decide i agree with you know that's good

1329
00:48:58,230 --> 00:48:57,200
yes you're coming on board with the

1330
00:49:00,549 --> 00:48:58,240
clapping

1331
00:49:02,549 --> 00:49:00,559
well i i guess i guess i'm coming on

1332
00:49:04,870 --> 00:49:02,559
board if we had this

1333
00:49:07,190 --> 00:49:04,880
omnipotent all-knowing

1334
00:49:09,430 --> 00:49:07,200
being that could decide what is

1335
00:49:11,589 --> 00:49:09,440
extraordinary in terms of claim and what

1336
00:49:13,349 --> 00:49:11,599
is extraordinary in terms of proof but i

1337
00:49:15,990 --> 00:49:13,359
would submit to you that that's why

1338
00:49:17,750 --> 00:49:16,000
we've built the scientific institutions

1339
00:49:21,510 --> 00:49:17,760
that we have that's why we have peer

1340
00:49:23,990 --> 00:49:21,520
review that's why we have a a a college

1341
00:49:25,750 --> 00:49:24,000
of academics who collectively create

1342
00:49:28,069 --> 00:49:25,760
this body of knowledge they are

1343
00:49:30,309 --> 00:49:28,079
constantly in the business of

1344
00:49:33,190 --> 00:49:30,319
extraordinary claims and extraordinary

1345
00:49:35,829 --> 00:49:33,200
proof and the notion that that we could

1346
00:49:37,750 --> 00:49:35,839
as a kind this armchair quarterback say

1347
00:49:40,150 --> 00:49:37,760
hey that area over there is

1348
00:49:43,829 --> 00:49:40,160
extraordinary i think is absurd i think

1349
00:49:45,990 --> 00:49:43,839
there's a thousands of little areas of

1350
00:49:47,990 --> 00:49:46,000
inquiry of science that we know nothing

1351
00:49:49,910 --> 00:49:48,000
about that if we went into we might

1352
00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:49,920
think wow that is extraordinary we just

1353
00:49:55,030 --> 00:49:52,240
don't know anything about it psychics

1354
00:49:57,910 --> 00:49:55,040
because they're on tv strike us as

1355
00:50:00,150 --> 00:49:57,920
extraordinary but to the researchers who

1356
00:50:02,069 --> 00:50:00,160
are in that field who are publishing in

1357
00:50:04,549 --> 00:50:02,079
those peer-reviewed journals who are

1358
00:50:06,230 --> 00:50:04,559
subjecting themselves to the criticism

1359
00:50:07,750 --> 00:50:06,240
of the best critics

1360
00:50:09,510 --> 00:50:07,760
are

1361
00:50:11,270 --> 00:50:09,520
some being

1362
00:50:13,109 --> 00:50:11,280
well some always i mean

1363
00:50:15,430 --> 00:50:13,119
some isn't really a qualifier here if

1364
00:50:16,309 --> 00:50:15,440
it's a qualifier all the time i'm just

1365
00:50:18,470 --> 00:50:16,319
saying

1366
00:50:21,109 --> 00:50:18,480
how would we layer on top of this this

1367
00:50:23,829 --> 00:50:21,119
notion of extraordinary how would we how

1368
00:50:26,470 --> 00:50:23,839
is the center for inquiry in any

1369
00:50:29,349 --> 00:50:26,480
position to be the arbitrary

1370
00:50:30,950 --> 00:50:29,359
of what is extraordinary even the people

1371
00:50:35,030 --> 00:50:30,960
doing the research think these claims

1372
00:50:38,230 --> 00:50:35,040
are extraordinary they will they will be

1373
00:50:39,910 --> 00:50:38,240
trumpeting from the rooftops if it turns

1374
00:50:41,589 --> 00:50:39,920
out they really can establish that some

1375
00:50:44,630 --> 00:50:41,599
people have psychic powers that is

1376
00:50:47,109 --> 00:50:44,640
absolutely extraordinary and you know it

1377
00:50:49,349 --> 00:50:47,119
it's exciting in a way that some other

1378
00:50:52,390 --> 00:50:49,359
rather more mundane scientific discovery

1379
00:50:54,309 --> 00:50:52,400
is not these are extraordinary claims

1380
00:50:55,589 --> 00:50:54,319
and it may be that we can establish that

1381
00:50:57,430 --> 00:50:55,599
they are true and it may be that the

1382
00:50:59,270 --> 00:50:57,440
extraordinary evidence is in hey i don't

1383
00:51:00,950 --> 00:50:59,280
know but so far so far as i'm aware

1384
00:51:03,190 --> 00:51:00,960
there are very many people working in

1385
00:51:05,910 --> 00:51:03,200
this area working very very hard who are

1386
00:51:07,349 --> 00:51:05,920
genuinely open-minded who just can't see

1387
00:51:09,109 --> 00:51:07,359
the evidence and they don't get the

1388
00:51:11,349 --> 00:51:09,119
results that other people do when they

1389
00:51:12,710 --> 00:51:11,359
repeat the experiments and on that basis

1390
00:51:14,549 --> 00:51:12,720
then i think

1391
00:51:16,790 --> 00:51:14,559
you know the evidence just isn't there

1392
00:51:19,270 --> 00:51:16,800
at this point but now we're moving from

1393
00:51:21,750 --> 00:51:19,280
talking about philosophy to talking

1394
00:51:23,750 --> 00:51:21,760
about the evidence i'm all for talking

1395
00:51:26,470 --> 00:51:23,760
about the evidence but i don't think

1396
00:51:28,710 --> 00:51:26,480
that's a debate that really you will

1397
00:51:30,390 --> 00:51:28,720
stand up very well in because we've

1398
00:51:33,030 --> 00:51:30,400
looked at the evidence the evidence has

1399
00:51:35,349 --> 00:51:33,040
been published the evidence isn't as

1400
00:51:38,630 --> 00:51:35,359
you've been led to believe the evidence

1401
00:51:41,990 --> 00:51:38,640
is as richard wiseman has said right

1402
00:51:45,270 --> 00:51:42,000
here that by any other area of science

1403
00:51:48,069 --> 00:51:45,280
it's proven that really is the dirty

1404
00:51:50,150 --> 00:51:48,079
dark secret here but it gets spun in a

1405
00:51:51,430 --> 00:51:50,160
different way so if you want to talk

1406
00:51:53,910 --> 00:51:51,440
about evidence we can talk about

1407
00:51:55,829 --> 00:51:53,920
evidence all day long i've talked to

1408
00:51:57,510 --> 00:51:55,839
dozens and dozens of these guys and had

1409
00:51:59,589 --> 00:51:57,520
them on the show and hashed that out

1410
00:52:00,950 --> 00:51:59,599
including yeah i mean think about that

1411
00:52:02,829 --> 00:52:00,960
think of it think think of it like this

1412
00:52:06,309 --> 00:52:02,839
suppose somebody says look

1413
00:52:08,150 --> 00:52:06,319
um i've got a i've got a machine here

1414
00:52:09,990 --> 00:52:08,160
that uh

1415
00:52:12,309 --> 00:52:10,000
that's i don't know it's it's it's

1416
00:52:14,069 --> 00:52:12,319
really good at uh lifting heavy weights

1417
00:52:15,910 --> 00:52:14,079
and we say okay

1418
00:52:17,030 --> 00:52:15,920
yeah that's that that's not particularly

1419
00:52:19,510 --> 00:52:17,040
surprising not a particularly

1420
00:52:21,750 --> 00:52:19,520
extraordinary claim we'll test it let's

1421
00:52:23,109 --> 00:52:21,760
let's produce a rig and an experiment

1422
00:52:25,670 --> 00:52:23,119
we'll test it in the lab to see if it

1423
00:52:26,630 --> 00:52:25,680
really does the thing and by golly by

1424
00:52:28,630 --> 00:52:26,640
golly

1425
00:52:30,790 --> 00:52:28,640
it does it you know it passes the test

1426
00:52:32,150 --> 00:52:30,800
okay so now this guy comes in he says

1427
00:52:34,710 --> 00:52:32,160
i've got this other machine it's

1428
00:52:36,870 --> 00:52:34,720
perpetual motion machine uh he rules it

1429
00:52:38,710 --> 00:52:36,880
in he says now just do the same

1430
00:52:40,230 --> 00:52:38,720
experiment i don't want you to change

1431
00:52:41,750 --> 00:52:40,240
anything the same standards that you

1432
00:52:43,510 --> 00:52:41,760
applied to my first machine i want you

1433
00:52:45,510 --> 00:52:43,520
to apply those exact same standards to

1434
00:52:47,990 --> 00:52:45,520
this machine and if it passes then you

1435
00:52:52,069 --> 00:52:48,000
have to tell the world that my perpetual

1436
00:52:54,630 --> 00:52:52,079
motion machine really works um i don't

1437
00:52:56,549 --> 00:52:54,640
think that would be fair

1438
00:52:58,549 --> 00:52:56,559
because the first machine doesn't is not

1439
00:53:00,470 --> 00:52:58,559
revolutionary and extraordinary in the

1440
00:53:02,630 --> 00:53:00,480
way that the second machine is that

1441
00:53:05,030 --> 00:53:02,640
second machine has to be investigated

1442
00:53:07,109 --> 00:53:05,040
much more carefully and the standards

1443
00:53:08,950 --> 00:53:07,119
applied have to be far more rigorous

1444
00:53:10,630 --> 00:53:08,960
because of the truly extraordinary

1445
00:53:12,069 --> 00:53:10,640
nature of the claim that's being

1446
00:53:13,349 --> 00:53:12,079
presented to us that's what

1447
00:53:15,109 --> 00:53:13,359
extraordinary claims require

1448
00:53:17,990 --> 00:53:15,119
extraordinary evidence means and it's

1449
00:53:20,710 --> 00:53:18,000
true well well stephen i i i just beg to

1450
00:53:23,270 --> 00:53:20,720
differ i i don't think you're intimately

1451
00:53:25,030 --> 00:53:23,280
familiar with the data dr dean rayden is

1452
00:53:27,510 --> 00:53:25,040
someone i just interviewed on the last

1453
00:53:29,109 --> 00:53:27,520
episode of skeptico i invite him to

1454
00:53:30,710 --> 00:53:29,119
contribute to think i published his

1455
00:53:32,950 --> 00:53:30,720
stuff that's great i mean here is

1456
00:53:34,870 --> 00:53:32,960
someone let's let's let's just dive into

1457
00:53:38,230 --> 00:53:34,880
dip into then a little bit of the

1458
00:53:40,470 --> 00:53:38,240
details of some data you know so he ran

1459
00:53:42,309 --> 00:53:40,480
this experiment called a pre-sentiment

1460
00:53:44,230 --> 00:53:42,319
experiment and the reason he set this up

1461
00:53:45,990 --> 00:53:44,240
is because it's a common experiment

1462
00:53:49,109 --> 00:53:46,000
that's been run on

1463
00:53:52,390 --> 00:53:49,119
freshman college students for decades

1464
00:53:54,470 --> 00:53:52,400
and that's that you hook them up to

1465
00:53:56,470 --> 00:53:54,480
some kind of biometric device various

1466
00:53:58,309 --> 00:53:56,480
different ones to measure their reaction

1467
00:54:01,510 --> 00:53:58,319
and you flash a picture on the computer

1468
00:54:03,349 --> 00:54:01,520
screen and it's either a a non

1469
00:54:05,190 --> 00:54:03,359
you know exciting picture of just a

1470
00:54:07,030 --> 00:54:05,200
pastoral scene or something like that or

1471
00:54:08,630 --> 00:54:07,040
it's something very provocative like sex

1472
00:54:10,870 --> 00:54:08,640
or violence or something like that and

1473
00:54:13,910 --> 00:54:10,880
then he wanted to measure the reaction

1474
00:54:15,190 --> 00:54:13,920
from those people what he found was a

1475
00:54:17,030 --> 00:54:15,200
reaction

1476
00:54:19,589 --> 00:54:17,040
before

1477
00:54:22,390 --> 00:54:19,599
the photo was even selected by the

1478
00:54:25,109 --> 00:54:22,400
computer it's a very small reaction but

1479
00:54:26,870 --> 00:54:25,119
it's repeatable he has repeated this

1480
00:54:29,349 --> 00:54:26,880
experiment stephen

1481
00:54:31,990 --> 00:54:29,359
uh over 50 times

1482
00:54:34,710 --> 00:54:32,000
in seven different labs it's been

1483
00:54:36,230 --> 00:54:34,720
repeated around the world and not just

1484
00:54:38,390 --> 00:54:36,240
by him

1485
00:54:41,910 --> 00:54:38,400
by other people by other people by other

1486
00:54:44,230 --> 00:54:41,920
people yes by him dozens of times by

1487
00:54:46,549 --> 00:54:44,240
other labs other than him at least nine

1488
00:54:48,790 --> 00:54:46,559
times if by the on the last count it's

1489
00:54:51,910 --> 00:54:48,800
been published in numerous peer-reviewed

1490
00:54:54,630 --> 00:54:51,920
journals so you know here is an example

1491
00:54:56,790 --> 00:54:54,640
of the kind of evidence that richard

1492
00:54:59,829 --> 00:54:56,800
wiseman is talking about when he says

1493
00:55:01,510 --> 00:54:59,839
hey by any other measure of science a

1494
00:55:04,069 --> 00:55:01,520
guy doesn't experiment repeats the

1495
00:55:06,870 --> 00:55:04,079
experiment makes the experiment public

1496
00:55:08,710 --> 00:55:06,880
this is proof it's just not accepted

1497
00:55:11,190 --> 00:55:08,720
because it doesn't fit within our

1498
00:55:13,270 --> 00:55:11,200
paradigm not because it's extraordinary

1499
00:55:15,349 --> 00:55:13,280
but because of the implications of what

1500
00:55:18,069 --> 00:55:15,359
that would mean for you talk about a

1501
00:55:21,109 --> 00:55:18,079
measurement problem okay now we have to

1502
00:55:23,109 --> 00:55:21,119
measure the fact that you are somehow

1503
00:55:25,829 --> 00:55:23,119
aware of things that are happening

1504
00:55:27,990 --> 00:55:25,839
before they happen well you can see how

1505
00:55:29,750 --> 00:55:28,000
unsettling that is to science yeah

1506
00:55:31,990 --> 00:55:29,760
extraordinary it's extraordinary climb

1507
00:55:33,670 --> 00:55:32,000
requires extraordinary evidence

1508
00:55:36,069 --> 00:55:33,680
yes yes

1509
00:55:37,990 --> 00:55:36,079
now has anyone attempted to repeat that

1510
00:55:40,790 --> 00:55:38,000
has anyone attempted to repeat that

1511
00:55:42,470 --> 00:55:40,800
experiment and failed to repeat it

1512
00:55:44,630 --> 00:55:42,480
i don't know i'm sure they i'm sure they

1513
00:55:46,630 --> 00:55:44,640
have i he he deals

1514
00:55:49,109 --> 00:55:46,640
at great length with the file drawer

1515
00:55:51,030 --> 00:55:49,119
problem i mean this guy is a very

1516
00:55:52,470 --> 00:55:51,040
accomplished

1517
00:55:54,470 --> 00:55:52,480
scientist

1518
00:55:56,230 --> 00:55:54,480
yeah i don't doubt it but

1519
00:55:58,470 --> 00:55:56,240
you know if people have attempted to

1520
00:56:00,870 --> 00:55:58,480
replicate the experiment and have not

1521
00:56:03,349 --> 00:56:00,880
received received you know got got yes

1522
00:56:05,910 --> 00:56:03,359
yes yes the file the file drawer problem

1523
00:56:09,349 --> 00:56:05,920
but you're a philosopher i am a

1524
00:56:11,190 --> 00:56:09,359
entrepreneur and a podcaster we're not

1525
00:56:13,829 --> 00:56:11,200
we're not the ones to really say you

1526
00:56:16,950 --> 00:56:13,839
know to figure out those stats he has

1527
00:56:18,710 --> 00:56:16,960
he's published them in his book uh in

1528
00:56:20,470 --> 00:56:18,720
his many books and he's talked

1529
00:56:22,230 --> 00:56:20,480
specifically about estimating what the

1530
00:56:24,230 --> 00:56:22,240
file drawer problem might be and he's

1531
00:56:25,510 --> 00:56:24,240
calculated that into his calculations

1532
00:56:27,510 --> 00:56:25,520
yeah well because i know that for

1533
00:56:29,910 --> 00:56:27,520
example chris french has attempted to

1534
00:56:31,349 --> 00:56:29,920
well has repeated experiments has failed

1535
00:56:33,030 --> 00:56:31,359
to get the result that other people have

1536
00:56:34,230 --> 00:56:33,040
got and when he's tried to publish that

1537
00:56:37,109 --> 00:56:34,240
in the peer-reviewed journals they

1538
00:56:39,829 --> 00:56:37,119
refuse and they refuse because they're

1539
00:56:41,910 --> 00:56:39,839
only interested in in in publishing uh

1540
00:56:43,829 --> 00:56:41,920
positive results not negative rules okay

1541
00:56:45,349 --> 00:56:43,839
but not the null effect the null effect

1542
00:56:47,430 --> 00:56:45,359
isn't very uh

1543
00:56:50,069 --> 00:56:47,440
newsworthy or doesn't really make it

1544
00:56:53,270 --> 00:56:50,079
into uh many journals does it

1545
00:56:54,870 --> 00:56:53,280
i got the null effect yeah yeah so so

1546
00:56:57,349 --> 00:56:54,880
look you know it may be that this can be

1547
00:56:58,470 --> 00:56:57,359
established uh i'm older i'd be very you

1548
00:57:00,309 --> 00:56:58,480
know it's extraordinary i'd love to

1549
00:57:02,150 --> 00:57:00,319
believe it was true it's very exciting

1550
00:57:05,430 --> 00:57:02,160
uh but you know the evidence is gonna

1551
00:57:07,109 --> 00:57:05,440
have to be pretty damn extraordinary uh

1552
00:57:08,789 --> 00:57:07,119
maybe it is already i don't know i'm not

1553
00:57:11,109 --> 00:57:08,799
an expert in this area i look forward to

1554
00:57:13,589 --> 00:57:11,119
seeing more of it well well you are an

1555
00:57:15,190 --> 00:57:13,599
expert in any number of things

1556
00:57:16,789 --> 00:57:15,200
including i i don't want to say you know

1557
00:57:18,470 --> 00:57:16,799
what i was just about to say this would

1558
00:57:20,069 --> 00:57:18,480
be a terrible thing you're an expert in

1559
00:57:22,870 --> 00:57:20,079
[\h__\h]

1560
00:57:25,829 --> 00:57:22,880
but i mean that i mean that in a very

1561
00:57:29,190 --> 00:57:25,839
very nice way in a positive way because

1562
00:57:30,549 --> 00:57:29,200
you are the author again of this very

1563
00:57:33,190 --> 00:57:30,559
interesting book that a lot of people

1564
00:57:35,349 --> 00:57:33,200
will find useful for these kind of dorm

1565
00:57:37,510 --> 00:57:35,359
room debates that we get into whether we

1566
00:57:39,349 --> 00:57:37,520
still live in a dorm or not and that is

1567
00:57:42,150 --> 00:57:39,359
the book's title is believing [\h__\h]

1568
00:57:44,549 --> 00:57:42,160
how not to get sucked into an

1569
00:57:47,030 --> 00:57:44,559
intellectual black hole before we let

1570
00:57:49,030 --> 00:57:47,040
you go dr law tell us about some other

1571
00:57:51,990 --> 00:57:49,040
projects that you're working on what's

1572
00:57:53,430 --> 00:57:52,000
going on at the journal think and and

1573
00:57:54,950 --> 00:57:53,440
anything else that might be going on in

1574
00:57:56,150 --> 00:57:54,960
your world yeah well edit the journal

1575
00:57:57,910 --> 00:57:56,160
thing for the royal institute of

1576
00:57:59,829 --> 00:57:57,920
philosophy which is a journal name to

1577
00:58:01,270 --> 00:57:59,839
everyone so you know anyone and everyone

1578
00:58:02,470 --> 00:58:01,280
should be able to read it and understand

1579
00:58:04,069 --> 00:58:02,480
the stuff that's published in there we

1580
00:58:05,910 --> 00:58:04,079
try and make it accessible

1581
00:58:08,309 --> 00:58:05,920
uh and interesting to a general to the

1582
00:58:10,309 --> 00:58:08,319
general public um i've been i've been

1583
00:58:12,549 --> 00:58:10,319
working on some new children's books

1584
00:58:14,470 --> 00:58:12,559
ideas i published philosophy books for

1585
00:58:16,390 --> 00:58:14,480
children in the past probably the best

1586
00:58:17,829 --> 00:58:16,400
known one is the philosophy

1587
00:58:19,430 --> 00:58:17,839
files which i think was known as

1588
00:58:21,430 --> 00:58:19,440
philosophy rocks

1589
00:58:23,990 --> 00:58:21,440
in the united states of america

1590
00:58:25,910 --> 00:58:24,000
um in fact that's got a chapter on weird

1591
00:58:27,670 --> 00:58:25,920
and mysterious things in actually the

1592
00:58:29,670 --> 00:58:27,680
second volume of that occur the the

1593
00:58:30,549 --> 00:58:29,680
complete philosophy files

1594
00:58:32,950 --> 00:58:30,559
um

1595
00:58:34,789 --> 00:58:32,960
so i'm hoping to do a bit more work with

1596
00:58:36,549 --> 00:58:34,799
kids and critical thinking and just

1597
00:58:38,230 --> 00:58:36,559
getting them to think rigorously and

1598
00:58:40,309 --> 00:58:38,240
carefully about this stuff which i'm

1599
00:58:42,069 --> 00:58:40,319
sure you know you'd you you'd be very

1600
00:58:43,910 --> 00:58:42,079
much in favor of too you know you'd

1601
00:58:46,470 --> 00:58:43,920
agree with that absolutely don't think

1602
00:58:47,990 --> 00:58:46,480
of me as a debunker okay you think of

1603
00:58:49,430 --> 00:58:48,000
centre of inquiry as the debunking

1604
00:58:50,789 --> 00:58:49,440
organization no i'd like to think of

1605
00:58:51,990 --> 00:58:50,799
myself as just that

1606
00:58:53,910 --> 00:58:52,000
you know i there are many of these

1607
00:58:56,870 --> 00:58:53,920
claims that i would love to be true i

1608
00:58:59,510 --> 00:58:56,880
would love it to be true right that some

1609
00:59:02,470 --> 00:58:59,520
that there is some kind of precognition

1610
00:59:04,470 --> 00:59:02,480
ability that we have um because it would

1611
00:59:07,109 --> 00:59:04,480
be so exciting uh it would it would

1612
00:59:08,630 --> 00:59:07,119
completely undermine and challenge

1613
00:59:10,789 --> 00:59:08,640
so much of what we believe about how the

1614
00:59:13,990 --> 00:59:10,799
world works um it would open up new

1615
00:59:15,750 --> 00:59:14,000
vistas for us um so it's not that i'm

1616
00:59:17,829 --> 00:59:15,760
it's not that i'm in principle against

1617
00:59:19,510 --> 00:59:17,839
such beliefs it's just that before i

1618
00:59:20,950 --> 00:59:19,520
believe anything like that boy

1619
00:59:22,549 --> 00:59:20,960
somebody's gonna have to give me some

1620
00:59:24,230 --> 00:59:22,559
pretty great evidence and as you've

1621
00:59:26,230 --> 00:59:24,240
already agreed you know extraordinary

1622
00:59:27,990 --> 00:59:26,240
claims really do require pretty

1623
00:59:29,750 --> 00:59:28,000
extraordinary evidence so

1624
00:59:31,510 --> 00:59:29,760
let's get that evidence in maybe maybe

1625
00:59:34,630 --> 00:59:31,520
it's there already let's find out i'm

1626
00:59:37,349 --> 00:59:34,640
always leery of anyone who says i'd love

1627
00:59:39,589 --> 00:59:37,359
this to be true i've heard that so many

1628
00:59:42,069 --> 00:59:39,599
times i have to say in my heart of

1629
00:59:43,829 --> 00:59:42,079
hearts i don't know that i would love

1630
00:59:46,630 --> 00:59:43,839
for this to be true

1631
00:59:49,270 --> 00:59:46,640
any more than i'd love for anything else

1632
00:59:50,950 --> 00:59:49,280
that i believe in to be shown to me to

1633
00:59:54,069 --> 00:59:50,960
not be true i don't know that that's a

1634
00:59:55,910 --> 00:59:54,079
comfortable process what i know is that

1635
00:59:58,870 --> 00:59:55,920
i'm committed to

1636
01:00:01,910 --> 00:59:58,880
following the data wherever it takes me

1637
01:00:04,150 --> 01:00:01,920
and being fully open to

1638
01:00:05,430 --> 01:00:04,160
exploring the fact that i might be being

1639
01:00:07,589 --> 01:00:05,440
duped by

1640
01:00:09,829 --> 01:00:07,599
as you said in that quote that i really

1641
01:00:11,829 --> 01:00:09,839
liked either by someone else or by

1642
01:00:14,630 --> 01:00:11,839
myself into thinking something that

1643
01:00:19,270 --> 01:00:14,640
isn't true yeah you need to be very very

1644
01:00:21,589 --> 01:00:19,280
aware of that uh we need to make sure

1645
01:00:24,470 --> 01:00:21,599
that we're not led by wishful thinking

1646
01:00:26,309 --> 01:00:24,480
uh that we don't use mystery as a way of

1647
01:00:28,069 --> 01:00:26,319
immunizing our beliefs and protecting

1648
01:00:29,670 --> 01:00:28,079
what we believe against any kind of

1649
01:00:31,750 --> 01:00:29,680
intellectual threat

1650
01:00:33,510 --> 01:00:31,760
and so on it's simple for all sorts of

1651
01:00:35,349 --> 01:00:33,520
reasons not just when it comes to the

1652
01:00:36,870 --> 01:00:35,359
investigation of the paranormal so we're

1653
01:00:39,270 --> 01:00:36,880
all on board with that which is good i

1654
01:00:41,109 --> 01:00:39,280
think well dr law it's been great having

1655
01:00:42,950 --> 01:00:41,119
you on i certainly enjoyed such a

1656
01:00:44,870 --> 01:00:42,960
spirited discussion

1657
01:00:46,390 --> 01:00:44,880
and a lot of great stuff here thanks

1658
01:00:54,549 --> 01:00:46,400
again for joining me

1659
01:00:58,710 --> 01:00:56,309
thanks again to dr law for joining me

1660
01:01:01,510 --> 01:00:58,720
today on skeptico i have a couple of

1661
01:01:04,390 --> 01:01:01,520
questions i'd tee up from this interview

1662
01:01:05,430 --> 01:01:04,400
the first would be are you a biological

1663
01:01:07,109 --> 01:01:05,440
robot

1664
01:01:09,510 --> 01:01:07,119
something we talked about in this

1665
01:01:12,230 --> 01:01:09,520
interview of course this is the claim

1666
01:01:13,349 --> 01:01:12,240
made by richard dawkins that really is

1667
01:01:17,349 --> 01:01:13,359
at the

1668
01:01:20,510 --> 01:01:17,359
core the underbelly of the atheist claim

1669
01:01:23,910 --> 01:01:20,520
and that's that you are a machine an

1670
01:01:26,789 --> 01:01:23,920
electrochemical robot that is driven by

1671
01:01:30,470 --> 01:01:26,799
genetic instincts and environmental

1672
01:01:33,030 --> 01:01:30,480
programming and you are nothing more so

1673
01:01:35,270 --> 01:01:33,040
to me that seems absolutely absurd i

1674
01:01:37,910 --> 01:01:35,280
think the philosophical argument for

1675
01:01:40,390 --> 01:01:37,920
that is absurd but i'd love to hear

1676
01:01:41,589 --> 01:01:40,400
someone come forward and explain how

1677
01:01:44,230 --> 01:01:41,599
they are

1678
01:01:46,230 --> 01:01:44,240
a biological robot and that they accept

1679
01:01:48,390 --> 01:01:46,240
that and that's how they live their life

1680
01:01:50,630 --> 01:01:48,400
i'd love to hear from you i hope you

1681
01:01:53,670 --> 01:01:50,640
join us and answer that question

1682
01:01:55,750 --> 01:01:53,680
in the affirmative so we can talk to you

1683
01:01:58,069 --> 01:01:55,760
and the second question since we spent

1684
01:02:00,390 --> 01:01:58,079
so much time talking about it in this

1685
01:02:02,950 --> 01:02:00,400
interview is does it make any sense from

1686
01:02:05,670 --> 01:02:02,960
a from a philosophy of science

1687
01:02:08,230 --> 01:02:05,680
perspective to proclaim that

1688
01:02:10,950 --> 01:02:08,240
extraordinary claims require

1689
01:02:13,510 --> 01:02:10,960
extraordinary proof now you know my

1690
01:02:15,829 --> 01:02:13,520
opinion on this not only from this show

1691
01:02:17,829 --> 01:02:15,839
but from many previous shows but it was

1692
01:02:20,870 --> 01:02:17,839
interesting to joust a little bit with

1693
01:02:22,150 --> 01:02:20,880
dr law on this and hash it out once

1694
01:02:24,710 --> 01:02:22,160
again so i'd love to get your

1695
01:02:27,270 --> 01:02:24,720
perspective on that is there a way to

1696
01:02:30,230 --> 01:02:27,280
reasonably support that claim that

1697
01:02:32,710 --> 01:02:30,240
somehow extraordinary claims require

1698
01:02:35,270 --> 01:02:32,720
this level of extraordinary proof would

1699
01:02:37,430 --> 01:02:35,280
love to hear your opinion on that as

1700
01:02:39,510 --> 01:02:37,440
well as on the first question of course

1701
01:02:43,030 --> 01:02:39,520
the place to do that is at the skeptico

1702
01:02:45,750 --> 01:02:43,040
website at s-k-e-p-t-i-k

1703
01:02:47,670 --> 01:02:45,760
don't forget the k-o.com while you're

1704
01:02:49,910 --> 01:02:47,680
there you can drop us a comment right

1705
01:02:51,910 --> 01:02:49,920
there on the website click and bounce

1706
01:02:54,470 --> 01:02:51,920
over to the forum where there's usually

1707
01:02:56,710 --> 01:02:54,480
a lot going on or drop me an email or

1708
01:02:58,710 --> 01:02:56,720
connect with me on facebook while you're

1709
01:03:01,990 --> 01:02:58,720
at the skeptical website be sure to

1710
01:03:03,829 --> 01:03:02,000
check out over our 200 previous episodes

1711
01:03:05,750 --> 01:03:03,839
lots of good stuff in there it's all

1712
01:03:07,829 --> 01:03:05,760
free available for download from the

1713
01:03:10,470 --> 01:03:07,839
website and i always love to hear from

1714
01:03:12,710 --> 01:03:10,480
listeners who discover skeptico and then

1715
01:03:15,029 --> 01:03:12,720
are and then are inspired to dig into

1716
01:03:17,270 --> 01:03:15,039
some of those old episodes i have to say

1717
01:03:19,270 --> 01:03:17,280
i do the same thing when i find a

1718
01:03:21,670 --> 01:03:19,280
podcast that i'm really turned on to

1719
01:03:23,670 --> 01:03:21,680
that i didn't know before it's a great

1720
01:03:25,190 --> 01:03:23,680
surprise to find that there's so many

1721
01:03:27,990 --> 01:03:25,200
preview shows that i can go back and

1722
01:03:30,549 --> 01:03:28,000
listen to i really enjoy doing that and

1723
01:03:32,390 --> 01:03:30,559
of course i enjoy it when someone finds

1724
01:03:34,630 --> 01:03:32,400
skeptico and goes through the same

1725
01:03:36,309 --> 01:03:34,640
process so if that's you i'll welcome

1726
01:03:38,630 --> 01:03:36,319
you to do it i have a number of

1727
01:03:39,990 --> 01:03:38,640
interesting shows coming up on skeptico

1728
01:03:42,309 --> 01:03:40,000
they're coming along at a pretty good

1729
01:03:44,710 --> 01:03:42,319
pace and they're certainly not slowing

1730
01:03:47,029 --> 01:03:44,720
down i'll have to see how i do keeping

1731
01:03:49,750 --> 01:03:47,039
up but i'll do my best but that's going